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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1624798 times)

scrdest

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20670 on: September 27, 2015, 11:40:48 am »

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We are doomed. It's just that whatever is going to kill us all just happens to be, from a scientific standpoint, pretty frickin' awesome.

mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20671 on: September 27, 2015, 12:12:37 pm »

But Poland was partly responsible for blocking formation of anti-Nazi Germany coalition?

Spoiler: longpost (click to show/hide)

tl;dr The coalition that formed wasn't the one Stalin wanted but it was perfectly capable of doing the job if Stalin hadn't allied with Hitler.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 12:15:33 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20672 on: September 27, 2015, 01:07:39 pm »

tl;dr The coalition that formed wasn't the one Stalin wanted but it was perfectly capable of doing the job if Stalin hadn't allied with Hitler.
For a coalition that was "perfectly suited for doing the job", it sure did do jack shit to meaningfully damage Hitler when he opened the hostilities in Europe. Even if Germany would be only armed with small arms, I doubt that France and UK would actually invade it. More likely, they would eventually make yet another Munich type of deal which would legitimize Germany's invasions a la Austria's anchluss. "Why die for Danzig?" and all that.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20673 on: September 27, 2015, 01:37:27 pm »

Except they did die for Danzig by declaring war on a (much stronger than without the USSR) Germany? So your point don't make any sense?
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Kot

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20674 on: September 27, 2015, 02:02:48 pm »

Russian 1939 invasion of Poland an act of self-defense, Poland shares responsibility for World War 2 with Nazi Germany.  Poles unamused. 
But Poland was partly responsible for blocking formation of anti-Nazi Germany coalition? I do remember reading about how Poland's officials absolutely refused to have USSR help them against Nazi Germany, multiple times.
What? Like, seriously, what the fuck?!
Do you seriously think it would be a good idea for Poland to ally with aggresive (1920) communist state that literally told everyone to face that they intend to invade them and spread communism everywhere? It would be worse idea than allying with Hitler.
Except they did die for Danzig by declaring war on a (much stronger than without the USSR) Germany? So your point don't make any sense?
It's not like that. They declared the war because they kinda had to, thanks to alliances with Poland and whatnot, but they didin't actually made much to even annoy Hitler. In the end, they could either start an actual war with Germany and possibly die for Danzing, or do nothing and die for Danzing anyway. They have choosen the latter option.
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20675 on: September 27, 2015, 02:13:16 pm »

it sure did do jack shit to meaningfully damage Hitler when he opened the hostilities in Europe

You mean besides depriving his arms industries of every input he needed and making it so Germany would literally be in famine in a couple years?  They didn't do jack shit, they did a hell of a lot and then Stalin proceeded to undermine everything.  I think it's wrong to assign blame indirectly and say Stalin is "to blame" for the choices the Nazis made to be horrible people.  However Stalin was the enabler of this behavior.

Understand the context and mechanism of the Versailles treaty.  The intent was to deny Germany the domestic capacity for warmaking on the same scale.  Germany on the eve of WWII had a fraction of the resources that it had on the eve of WWII.  The key countries that Germany imported from (UK, France, Benelux, US, Mexico, Romania, Poland) all had embargoed Germany.  The framework had been successful at denying Germany the resources to be a true threat... until the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact surprised everyone when the two countries most ideologically opposed signed a deal.

It's not like that. They declared the war because they kinda had to, thanks to alliances with Poland and whatnot, but they didin't actually made much to even annoy Hitler.

The blockade of Germany which quickly exhausted their supplies of steel, oil, copper, tungsten, etc. did considerably more then annoy Hitler.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20676 on: September 27, 2015, 02:20:46 pm »

Russian 1939 invasion of Poland an act of self-defense, Poland shares responsibility for World War 2 with Nazi Germany.  Poles unamused. 
But Poland was partly responsible for blocking formation of anti-Nazi Germany coalition? I do remember reading about how Poland's officials absolutely refused to have USSR help them against Nazi Germany, multiple times.
What? Like, seriously, what the fuck?!
Do you seriously think it would be a good idea for Poland to ally with aggresive (1920) communist state that literally told everyone to face that they intend to invade them and spread communism everywhere? It would be worse idea than allying with Hitler.
I dunno, from my subjective viewpoint, it would've been a better idea. I mean, at least communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people, unlike Hitler and his Generalplan Ost. Life under communism sucks, but it's still life; meanwhile Hitler planned to kill/deport 80-85% of Poles.

Except they did die for Danzig by declaring war on a (much stronger than without the USSR) Germany? So your point don't make any sense?
Let's read again what I've posted, now with emphasis:
it sure did do jack shit to meaningfully damage Hitler when he opened the hostilities in Europe
The bolded part refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War. They formally declared war, sure, but they didn't actually sent their troops to "die for Danzig" as much as they would if they were in a real coalition.
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Kot

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20677 on: September 27, 2015, 02:30:07 pm »

communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people
Are you sure?
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20678 on: September 27, 2015, 02:58:34 pm »

communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people
Are you sure?
OK:
communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people
I believe information contained within the bolded part answers your question.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20679 on: September 27, 2015, 03:13:16 pm »

Okay, for the 'hundreds of millions' of people I'd like a citation from you, Sergarr. I doubt that there even were sufficiently many people in the relevant parts of Eastern Europe to make killing more than 199 million people feasible without importing them first.

By the way, funny but cruel Polish joke I heard today:

Who was the biggest Polish patriot? Dzerzhinsky, because no Pole killed more Russians than he did.
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Kot

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20680 on: September 27, 2015, 03:16:59 pm »

communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people
Are you sure?
OK:
communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people
I believe information contained within the bolded part answers your question.
Possibly, maybe. It's hard to argue that Nazis weren't the worst (and it's not what I'm trying to prove) because the numbers clearly show they are and pretty much were, but the point here isin't that Germany didin't had plans, the point is that alliance with Soviet Union would mean instant war, while alliance with Nazi Germany would still leave some ways open. It's not like that Germany would start executing Poles the second they sign the treaty, which is pretty much exactly what would Soviets do.
I doubt that there even were sufficiently many people in the relevant parts of Eastern Europe to make killing more than 199 million people feasible without importing them first.
It was exactly what I wanted to check but finally said that it's too late for me to do so.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20681 on: September 27, 2015, 03:29:42 pm »

Well there's 35 million Poles, there's about 170 million people in Soviet Union, most of which were living in Eastern Europe, Czehoslovakia had 15 million, then there are Baltic states, which add about (1+2.5+2=5.5) millions of people... and since all of that data is from 1939 or earlier you can add in the population growth from 10-20 years (which was the time alloted for realization of Generalplan Ost)...

Still, I think I have exaggerated a little. Not "hundreds of millions", but definitely "more than than a hundred million" with good chances of "more than a hundred and fifty million".

In any case, it would still be about one order of magnitude higher than Soviet mass-atrocity death count.
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martinuzz

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20682 on: September 27, 2015, 04:02:33 pm »

Catalonia independence bants begins again

With over 80% of votes having been counted now, it looks certain that the seperatist movement will get an absolute majority of the votes.
They now claim to have enough mandate to start negotiations about the process of seceding Catalonia from Spain.

RIP Spain, about to lose it's best economic region.

I wonder if the Republic of Catalonia will retain EU membership, or if they will have to re-apply.
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20683 on: September 27, 2015, 04:05:09 pm »

I rather doubt Spain is going to accept them seceding just like that.
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20684 on: September 27, 2015, 04:08:54 pm »

it sure did do jack shit to meaningfully damage Hitler when he opened the hostilities in Europe
The bolded part refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War. They formally declared war, sure, but they didn't actually sent their troops to "die for Danzig" as much as they would if they were in a real coalition.

Again, ground military actions are not all of military action.  Why should they waste lives on stupid offensives when it's Germany that needs to attack before the blockade forces their surrender?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
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