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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1644994 times)

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20685 on: September 27, 2015, 04:22:52 pm »

The final results state that nationalists forces will get 72 seats... which is an absolute majority, but pretty much the results they had beforehand.

Votewise things are less clear: they got about 47% of the vote. AFAIK it's actually less than they did last time.

We'll see what comes out of this. TBH I don't think much will change one way or the other. Or would have, either way.
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scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20686 on: September 27, 2015, 04:44:38 pm »

The final results state that nationalists forces will get 72 seats... which is an absolute majority, but pretty much the results they had beforehand.

Votewise things are less clear: they got about 47% of the vote. AFAIK it's actually less than they did last time.

We'll see what comes out of this. TBH I don't think much will change one way or the other. Or would have, either way.

Not even increased self determination?

Also, by the way. Does sowing still have nobility, and if so, are ale Basquelanders still considered gentry by default?
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20687 on: September 27, 2015, 05:32:20 pm »

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Not even increased self determination?

*Shrug* They might try for a better statute of autonomy (something similar to the Basque one*), which I suspect has probably been the real goal all along.  It's dubious that the central goverment will budge very much, though. There is a general election in a couple of months, and things are going bad for them as it is.  Though they might go for it if they think it will spare them from further loss of face in Catalonia. Who knows. 



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Also, by the way. Does sowing still have nobility, and if so, are ale Basquelanders still considered gentry by default?

Not in any meaningful way. Nobility priviledges (notably tax exemption) were abolished back in the 1840s. This hurt the lower nobility (hidalgos) the worst, as many of them were subsistence farmers that relied on that tax exemption to make ends meet, and AFAIK they disappeared as a class. Some noble titles (marquis, Grandes, etc...) remain as honorifics nowadays, but without any special rights attached beyond the use of the name.
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Culise

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20688 on: September 27, 2015, 07:12:34 pm »

It's not like that. They declared the war because they kinda had to, thanks to alliances with Poland and whatnot, but they didin't actually made much to even annoy Hitler. In the end, they could either start an actual war with Germany and possibly die for Danzing, or do nothing and die for Danzing anyway. They have choosen the latter option.
Yes and no.  They had such alliances with Czechoslovakia as well, but this didn't stop them from selling Beneš down the river at Munich, then giving barely a murmur of protest when Hitler marched into Prague.  If they had been truly inclined to come to terms with Hitler, France would have pushed for a Second Munich ceding Danzig and the Polish Corridor, then half a year later the rest of Poland, then in another half-year to year later the cession of Alsace-Lorraine (which would have been political suicide, but kept it out of war).  The Saar Offensive was a disaster, not because of the Germans (indeed, it never even reached the Siegfried Line), but because the French army was simply operating with an army crippled by peacetime political manouevreing in the budget and a strategy in the High Command that dated back to World War 1's emphasis on the defense that presupposed that any assault on the Siegfried Line would result in a new Verdun or Somme.  They did want to fight; they just didn't want to bring the fight to the Germans, but rather for the Germans to bring the fight to them, where they could then cut it off and rip it to pieces in Belgium. 

Catalonia independence bants begins again

With over 80% of votes having been counted now, it looks certain that the seperatist movement will get an absolute majority of the votes.
They now claim to have enough mandate to start negotiations about the process of seceding Catalonia from Spain.

RIP Spain, about to lose it's best economic region.

I wonder if the Republic of Catalonia will retain EU membership, or if they will have to re-apply.
Irrespective of the heartfelt promises, wishes, and dreams of the pro-independence leaders, everything from the EU has been along the lines of "Catalonia starts from scratch".  It's perfectly possible that the entire EU will backtrack on this issue should push come to shove, but there are two significant EU nations (Spain and the United Kingdom) that have a strongly-vested interest in ensuring secessionist states from EU nations do not automatically inherit EU membership. 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 07:18:13 pm by Culise »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20689 on: September 27, 2015, 07:19:01 pm »

I rather doubt Spain is going to accept them seceding just like that.
Spain doesn't get a say, they don't even have power over their own country anymore, they gave it away

mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20690 on: September 27, 2015, 10:03:43 pm »

The Saar Offensive was a disaster

There was hardly anything disastrous about it.  "Extremely underwhelming in scope" would be an accurate criticism.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20691 on: September 28, 2015, 06:50:09 am »

This is why Corby won't win, irresponsible borrowing is not popular with peeps

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Kot

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20692 on: September 28, 2015, 08:51:29 am »

They did want to fight; they just didn't want to bring the fight to the Germans, but rather for the Germans to bring the fight to them, where they could then cut it off and rip it to pieces in Belgium. 
Considering the state of Siegfried Line in 1939 (the Germans themselves said it was little more than construction site at the time) and how well manned it was (almost the whole army was busy in Poland), I would risk saying that France and Britain could end the war in 1940 (or even in 1939 if they pushed really hard), simply by going through nearly non-existent line and going straight for Berlin. And as for cutting it off and ripping to pieces in Belgium... well, yeah, you see how that worked out.
But of course, better to die on your own land than on theirs, right?
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Morrigi

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20693 on: September 28, 2015, 09:18:18 am »

They did want to fight; they just didn't want to bring the fight to the Germans, but rather for the Germans to bring the fight to them, where they could then cut it off and rip it to pieces in Belgium. 
Considering the state of Siegfried Line in 1939 (the Germans themselves said it was little more than construction site at the time) and how well manned it was (almost the whole army was busy in Poland), I would risk saying that France and Britain could end the war in 1940 (or even in 1939 if they pushed really hard), simply by going through nearly non-existent line and going straight for Berlin. And as for cutting it off and ripping to pieces in Belgium... well, yeah, you see how that worked out.
But of course, better to die on your own land than on theirs, right?
They didn't have the equipment, coordination, or political will to do it.
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20694 on: September 28, 2015, 09:26:51 am »

They did want to fight; they just didn't want to bring the fight to the Germans, but rather for the Germans to bring the fight to them, where they could then cut it off and rip it to pieces in Belgium. 
Considering the state of Siegfried Line in 1939 (the Germans themselves said it was little more than construction site at the time) and how well manned it was (almost the whole army was busy in Poland), I would risk saying that France and Britain could end the war in 1940 (or even in 1939 if they pushed really hard), simply by going through nearly non-existent line and going straight for Berlin. And as for cutting it off and ripping to pieces in Belgium... well, yeah, you see how that worked out.
But of course, better to die on your own land than on theirs, right?
They didn't have the equipment, coordination, or political will to do it.

And France pretty much screwed themselves up in defending their own soil.
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Kot

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20695 on: September 28, 2015, 09:31:21 am »

They didn't have the equipment, coordination, or political will to do it.
As for the equipment, they proably had best equipped and I'm not sure if not biggest army around.
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Erkki

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20696 on: September 28, 2015, 09:46:12 am »

They did want to fight; they just didn't want to bring the fight to the Germans, but rather for the Germans to bring the fight to them, where they could then cut it off and rip it to pieces in Belgium. 
Considering the state of Siegfried Line in 1939 (the Germans themselves said it was little more than construction site at the time) and how well manned it was (almost the whole army was busy in Poland), I would risk saying that France and Britain could end the war in 1940 (or even in 1939 if they pushed really hard), simply by going through nearly non-existent line and going straight for Berlin. And as for cutting it off and ripping to pieces in Belgium... well, yeah, you see how that worked out.
But of course, better to die on your own land than on theirs, right?
They didn't have the equipment, coordination, or political will to do it.

And France pretty much screwed themselves up in defending their own soil.

Its of course much debated... But I'm not sure if Maurice Gamelin, with the information and the organization he had available, could have done much if any better.

Unfortunately for the French, number of men and qualitative parity(sort of) in hardware helped only so much.
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Culise

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20697 on: September 28, 2015, 09:53:56 am »

They did want to fight; they just didn't want to bring the fight to the Germans, but rather for the Germans to bring the fight to them, where they could then cut it off and rip it to pieces in Belgium. 
Considering the state of Siegfried Line in 1939 (the Germans themselves said it was little more than construction site at the time) and how well manned it was (almost the whole army was busy in Poland), I would risk saying that France and Britain could end the war in 1940 (or even in 1939 if they pushed really hard), simply by going through nearly non-existent line and going straight for Berlin. And as for cutting it off and ripping to pieces in Belgium... well, yeah, you see how that worked out.
But of course, better to die on your own land than on theirs, right?
I agree on the state of the Siegfried Line and a potential 1940 victory, albeit with the caveat that the French were unaware of the true state of affairs in the West (and the further caveat that they made little effort to ascertain the truth).  I was specifying the strategic operating parameters of the Allied High Command at that point in time, under the explicitly-outlined presuppositions in that post, and how under these presuppositions their operational plans were not simply a matter of "waiting to die," but rather an attempt to ensure victory under what were unfortunately later proven to be invalid premises.  The fact that they were wrong does not mean that they were attempting to fail or come to terms with Nazi Germany; to be less charitable to the French High Command, stupidity (insofar as you call hewing to past experience a bit too much "stupidity") does not require malice. 

French tanks were arguably the best of the day.  Unfortunately, they were also slow (both tactically on the battlefield and strategically moving between battles), unreliable, and often required refueling, limiting their range further.  They were well-designed for their role as infantry-support vehicles to secure the battlefield in a riposte from defensive positions, but extremely poorly-suited to the offensive exploitation of the now-dislodged enemy of the sort that, say, the like of Guderian demonstrated in his race against his own QM corps.  This is, again, in keeping with the general trend of the French High Command's preparations for a war in the same style, and more importantly speed, as the First World War.  Communications was famously sub-par, as illustrated in the lack of radios; the size of the army was indeed the largest in Western Europe (and arguably the second-largest behind the USSR) but again, hampered by its leadership's poor assumptions.  All of this played into their poor showing in the Battle of France, as well as their inability to sustain an offensive.  Critically, however, the French had captured the German war plans in January 1940; they knew the main thrust was going to come over the Dyle and run into the heart of their strength, set up in defensive positions.  They knew the Germans had fallen for their deceptions, and thus didn't know they knew.  The problem is that Hitler changed the plans anyways because he favored Rundstedt and Manstein's daring over Halder's caution, and as we all know, what the French knew came back to bite them in the rear. 
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 09:58:10 am by Culise »
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20698 on: September 28, 2015, 09:57:51 am »

I would risk saying that France and Britain could end the war in 1940

1940 is after all the German troops are transfered back from Poland so I'm assuming you mean 1939...

None of the components of a French offensive were there.  And I say French because the BEF didn't show up until October when the first division showed up (Germany at that point mustering over 100 divisions).  A French invasion in October could muster perhaps a dozen (half motorized) of their 20 mobile divisions, one fast armored division (equivalent to a Panzer division) and maybe eventually their sole heavy armored division (no German equivalent).  After October 5th, German troops start transferring back from Poland and France has no advantage in the west.

The French planned to match the Germans before any attack and then out produce them longterm.  Germany had 10 panzer divisions for Poland and still had at the time they invaded France but France brought their armored division total up to six (half of those heavy).  Germany had more modern planes at the time of the invasion but French+British production and imports from the US was about 50% more planes and the rate would only increase.  From 1935-1939, the French army is dealing with the severe manpower shortage brought by the WWI baby bust.  In 1940 and 1941 the metropolitan French disadvantage in military age men coming of age a year goes from about 250,000 to about 100,000 (not counting colonial manpower or pieds-noir).  So Germany in 1939 is at it's greatest strength but by 1941 and 1942, France will have closed the gap.  As such, the French have every incentive to wait.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Culise

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #20699 on: September 28, 2015, 10:00:50 am »

I would risk saying that France and Britain could end the war in 1940

1940 is after all the German troops are transfered back from Poland so I'm assuming you mean 1939...
I was under the impression that he worded it that way in the sense of a 1939 offensive bringing about a surrender in early 1940.  That said, since I agreed with him on that, I think your points are well-taken.  I wasn't able to find how effective the French mobilization was; I do know the Maginot garrisons (the majority of the forces in theatre) were poorly-supplied for any offensive for obvious reasons, but I was unaware of the state of what was eventually going to become the mobile reserve sent into Belgium in 1940. 
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