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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1331138 times)

TheDarkStar

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14145 on: January 10, 2015, 11:48:00 pm »

You do have Muslims fighting extremists, though. In Iraq (which is mostly Muslim), the army is fighting ISIS. There was also a call to arms (for defense) from one of the non-extremist religious leaders there a while ago.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14146 on: January 11, 2015, 12:14:41 am »

Muslims are not the same as Islam.

When I will see how majority of Islam authorities will.... lets say call HAMAS scum on regular basis then I'll start considering that Islam as religion that doesn't support senseless terrorism.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Propman

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14147 on: January 11, 2015, 01:58:15 am »

Yeah, the KKK is more tied to skincolor. It's bad, yes, but Muslim extremists are worse because they came a few decades later when they could have easier access to things like automatic weaponry and rocket launchers. Muslim extremists are also not as opposed to suicide bombings.


KKK is a firmly christian organization. It is part and parcel of their beliefs.

I rarely communicate ideas well, it seems.

Perhaps it is because I am accustomed to speaking to a different audience, one that is more likely to understand my intent as it is delivered.

Also remember however that the KKK detests Catholics and would not hesitate to do to them what they did to the blacks. One thing that sets Christianity apart from the other Abrahamic religions is the fact that it's HEAVILY fractionated, with the main divisions being between Protestants/Mormons and Catholics/Orthodoxy, with the and being the biggest divider between the four sides, and that's just a generalization, not even accounting for things like the Episcopals and the Evangelists. It's difficult to blame any one thing on "Christianity" because Christians of one church will be quick to condemn and split off from those of another that they do not agree with, and will just as often bicker amongst themselves as they would outsiders.

 The Sunni/Shiite split between Islam is roughly equivalent to this, and when you have Muslims fighting other Muslims, I'd guess it's usually because of these lines. Nevertheless, whether Islam dividing itself as a faith, even if only to remove the extremist elements is a good or a bad thing is difficult to say; the division of the church certainly hasn't done Christians many favors.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14148 on: January 11, 2015, 03:01:20 am »

Muslims are not the same as Islam.

When I will see how majority of Islam authorities will.... lets say call HAMAS scum on regular basis then I'll start considering that Islam as religion that doesn't support senseless terrorism.

Following the recent attacks in Paris, pretty much every European Muslim leader, every muslim-majority state, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation and the scholars al-Azhar university in Cairo all condemned the attack. Hell, even Hizbullah condemned them.

And, no, you know exactly what I'm talking about. You cannot wear overtly religious symbolism in public in France. Period. No crucifixes, no Stars of David, no burqas. It doesn't matter whether you're a Muslim woman or a Catholic priest- you can't wear them. We can debate whether or not this is a good ban, but it's an equal ban.

That is not true. The burqa is banned under a law against face-covering clothing in public. But you can wear a crucifix or a david star without problem. The veil is banned in schools under another law against "ostentatious religious symbols". Wearing a crucifix or a David's star would pass. Sikh headgear and yarmulke would not I guess, but France has 5 millions muslims and only 30000 Sikhs and 500,000 Jews. It's also clear from the public debate that surrounded the implementations of both those laws that the intent was to target muslims.

That was not an anti-Muslim or anti-Jewish attack, the target was picked because it was a camp of the youth of a left-wing party. Whether or not any muslims happened to die was secondary (although I doubt he minded killing them much, given his views). And, well, it shouldn't be hard to prove, seeing what targets he picked.

So, it was an attack of a nationalist, right-wing nut against his political opponents, and him being the aforementioned nationalist, right-wing nut WAS stated and emphasized, as far as I've seen.

Breivik left behind a 1000-page manifesto explaining why he did what he did, so we know pretty wellll. You have to understand European far-right ideology. They fear that Muslims are taking over Europe, with support from the left-wing parties who let the door open for immigrants and push multiculturalism as a way to disarm white christian Europeans against the coming Muslim horde.

Breivik killed those left-wingers because he think of them as allies of the Arab Muslims invaders.

To be fair, as far as I could tell, Charlie was considered a "left wing" rag. If THAT is what a left wing rag in France is, then something is definitely rotten in the state of Frankreich.

Well, it's a dynamic you can see all over Europe: far-right parties reposition themselves as the defenders of traditional left-wing values (gay rights, secularism, women's rights, animal rights...) against Muslims. And many left-winger falls into the trap and start bashing on Muslims. It's like the far-right Dutch PVV that is headed by a gay man for example.
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Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which donít yet.

Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14149 on: January 11, 2015, 04:58:09 am »

Dwarf, I don't think neo-nazis accept black people, is France different (also,I doubt that point, there are far fewer blacks in france)
The NPD in Berlin Kreuzberg has semitic members and not even only a few.

Wait, Christianity is best represented by the KKK and abortion clinic bombers?
When did she say that? She just pointed out they weren't and that the same goes for Muslims. Dude, seriously?

Where I stepped in was where smeeprocket chastised someone for going after Muslim extremists, and then called for Christianity to repudiate the KKK and abortion clinic bombers.
Take a breath and think. She pointed out how people wanted Muslims to apologize for what some extremists did. She asked why the same isn't done for extremists claiming to be Christians. Nowhere did she indicate she wanted Christians to apologize but rather to point out how a double standard exists while citing evidence to support her claim.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14150 on: January 11, 2015, 05:05:39 am »

Except I think no one here asked for your regular Urist McMuslim to apologize for the acts of the fucktards that attacked Charlie Hedo and that kosher supermarket.

Honestly, I think part of the reason smeeprocket comes out so abrasive is that she takes IRL bad behavior (demanding Muslims apologize for the attacks is something that a lot of people did over the last few days) and project them on her fellow debaters here.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
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Lt_Alfred

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14151 on: January 11, 2015, 06:08:14 am »

Islamic Extremists are a tiny, nonrepresentative subset of Islam. It's just that lots of people don't realize how few of them there actually are.

I'd believe that if mainstream Islam would actually fight extremists. It doesn't. Why?

You wouldn't say that if you've seen the amount of anti-extremism campaigns I've seen on arab TV, How many Imams condemning terrorism and extremism every time a terrorist attack happens and repeating their condemnation before and after prayers.
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Zac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14152 on: January 11, 2015, 07:50:03 am »

Islamic Extremists are a tiny, nonrepresentative subset of Islam. It's just that lots of people don't realize how few of them there actually are.

I'd believe that if mainstream Islam would actually fight extremists. It doesn't. Why?

The Malian army fought in the streets of Timbuktu, their capital, against islamists rebels and retaken the city from them.
The kurds and the iraqi army are fighting against ISIS in Irak and several rebels groups are doing the same in Syria. A lots of kurds in Turkey and Iran have cross the border to join their brothers in Irak and help them in their fight.
The Afghan army and air force regularly conduct raids and air strikes against taliban hideouts in their country.
The Yemeni government is fighting against al-Qaida and try to retake control of areas occupied by the islamists.
The African Union is at war against the terrorist organisation known as Boko Aram.

Last point. The police officer who was executed in the street by the two terrorists wednesday in Paris. His name was Ahmed Merabet and he was sunni muslim.

Wake up guy. Not only muslims are fighting extremists, but they often are in first line.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 07:56:40 am by Zac »
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Yannanth

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14153 on: January 11, 2015, 08:41:38 am »

The Yemeni government is fighting against al-Qaida and try to retake control of areas occupied by the islamists.
Yay, someone else who knows about this. This has actually been going on for years. An effective government was never really formed in Yemen and it was always one step from a failed state, despite the historic prosperity of the region (due to the spice trade, which declined in the late 1600s as spices could be brought easier from India and more importantly, America). There was also a large communist insurgency and Yemen was effectively split into two states for many years.

I predict the next major conflict will happen there, if it isn't already happening. Yemen always had low oil reserves and their oil is set to run out in 2017-2018. It has easily the worst economy in middle east (pre-Syrian War) and a lack of economic diversification means it doesn't even have economic potential, unlike Iraq which is swimming in crude oil.

It's also worth pointing out that, while Westerners always think that the terrorist threat is 'overblown' and that 9/11 was an one-off, Nigerians and many other Muslims (they rarely work in Christian areas, ironically) have to face deaths as a result of Islamic terrorism every week. We must not reduce their plight by suggesting it's all a conspiracy theory to curtain civil liberties on the internet or whatever the latest trend is.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14154 on: January 11, 2015, 08:54:41 am »

I predict the next major conflict will happen there, if it isn't already happening.
And the latest terrorists in France have conveniently told somebody that they were from Yemen's Al-Qaeda.

how convenient
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Phmcw

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14155 on: January 11, 2015, 09:16:33 am »

I predict the next major conflict will happen there, if it isn't already happening.
And the latest terrorists in France have conveniently told somebody that they were from Yemen's Al-Qaeda.

how convenient

They didn't tell somebody, we know they went there.

To police is overloaded with suspects and extrmism is too widespread to keep an eye on them all. Guess that widespread immigration, plus bad schools, plus disdain, plus lack of police, plus immigrant gettho, plus support for Islamic monarchies, plus destabilisation of the middle east, plus special treatement of Israel, plus mondialisation causing an economic crisis, plus making less and less efforts to have the immigrant network with the natives, plus accusing the natives of racism to cover up the problems in the gettho, plus turning a blind eye to growing ressentement, plus austerity wans't a good idea after all?


Who would have guessed? And the sad thing is : everyone, peoples have been protesting about all that for years, but politicians choosed to turn a blind eye.

Basically here's the discourse of our political class : "No more budget for schools it's too expensive!"
"What? Reducing immigration to what we can handle, then? This racism cannot stand!"
"Holding IsraŽl accountable? Anti semitism! They can kill who they want."
"Too much ciminality? That's because lack of school and lack of reinsertion? What more budgets for that? No, we cannot spend more money! You're still complaining? Racist!!"
"There are problem with the immigrant culture? RAAACIST!! What? 90 % of women of egypt are sexually mutilated then what? No there won't be a cultural shock!"

And then there is the far right : "immigration is the root of all evil. EEEEEVILLLLL"

And that's the same for everything. "Car pollute, let's make less road!! What? Good trains? No! privatisation and less trains! What mobility problems? Use a bike like they do in Amsterdam! Amsterdam is flat and Brussels is not, which mean that it's much, much more difficult in Brussels? not my problem peasants!"

"We need clean energy" (understand they don't want to invest anymore) "Energy supply is infficient? Let's cut supply to some areas, lol".

"Mondialisation and free trade is the way forward!" "We can't tax corporations anymore? No problem we can still tax you, peasants".



Maybe it's time we act?

Edit : forgot to talk about the jutice system : overloaded, arbitrary, and the prison are bad enough to radicalize peoples and make inmates more criminals while the sentences are short and unlikely enough not to be a real detterent. They really met the sweet spot. I met a beggar at the train station that asked me for money "because he didn't want to go back to prison". He said he got out a few days ago and that he had nowhere to go no social lodgment, no work,... real smooth reinsertion. I really feel my taxes are well used.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 09:24:47 am by Phmcw »
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Dumbestdorf

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14156 on: January 11, 2015, 09:23:29 am »

To be fair, as far as I could tell, Charlie was considered a "left wing" rag. If THAT is what a left wing rag in France is, then something is definitely rotten in the state of Frankreich.

Well, it's a dynamic you can see all over Europe: far-right parties reposition themselves as the defenders of traditional left-wing values (gay rights, secularism, women's rights, animal rights...) against Muslims. And many left-winger falls into the trap and start bashing on Muslims. It's like the far-right Dutch PVV that is headed by a gay man for example.

Actually, the part that's falling into a far-right trap are the left-wingers who will give up on certain topics, and in some cases start defending the exact opposite, because the far-right started re-using it ("putting some socialism in their nationalism"). That's typically the case regarding religions / secularism, where the left-wing used to be rather anti-clerical (Charlie Hebdo being somewhat representative of that) and gave that up to become "inclusive" towards religions when the far-right started using "Muslim" to mean "these damned brown people we so like to beat up".

Edit because someone will try to go there from what I just said: religion != beliefs != believers. And the latter is most certainly NOT the same thing as "race". Shame to see that far-right amalgamation spouted by self-described left-wingers.

Edit again: quotes needed around "race" in previous edit.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 09:36:30 am by Dumbestdorf »
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Yannanth

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14157 on: January 11, 2015, 09:37:37 am »

To be fair, as far as I could tell, Charlie was considered a "left wing" rag. If THAT is what a left wing rag in France is, then something is definitely rotten in the state of Frankreich.

Well, it's a dynamic you can see all over Europe: far-right parties reposition themselves as the defenders of traditional left-wing values (gay rights, secularism, women's rights, animal rights...) against Muslims. And many left-winger falls into the trap and start bashing on Muslims. It's like the far-right Dutch PVV that is headed by a gay man for example.
[/quote]
Yes, because gays must necessarily be left-wing otherwise they're self-hating internalised homophobes -- god forbid they think for themselves rather than read what the Little Red Book says, right Sheb? That's the worst of leftist snobbery I've heard in a while.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14158 on: January 11, 2015, 09:40:53 am »

What? Gays can be whatever they want, but the parties that have traditionally championed gay right are left-wing, what you'd call "liberals" in American parlance.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14159 on: January 11, 2015, 10:35:47 am »

How does being gay correlates with the views on the position of the government in the society?
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