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[DerMeister]

Why mods of dwarven domestic creatures seems so cheeting and not in setting? Start as simple mod with remove exotic from cave pets/mounts/others and decline dwarven acces to common domestic animals. Add some tokens to vanilla cave animals. And only after it - add a little new creatures for needed functions.

[FantasticDorf]

Why mods of dwarven domestic creatures seems so cheeting and not in setting? Start as simple mod with remove exotic from cave pets/mounts/others and decline dwarven acces to common domestic animals. Add some tokens to vanilla cave animals. And only after it - add a little new creatures for needed functions.

Balance has been talked about before but like the similar spiritual successor mod, its impractical to take all of the mod's creature's in at once without obtaining them gradually over time via trade and taming immediately at embark because like with common domestics, the utility can depend on what you want them for.

Goat farms give milk, a little bit of meat and guranteed horns regardless of the sex being butchered unlike sheep, which are also quite small and yield wool for only a bit of grassland pasture for a comparison of similar creatures, sometimes its more preferable to take leatherbats if im not going to be hunting in this particular embark etc in order to get some quick leather supplies and livestock.

[Wannabehero]

Why mods of dwarven domestic creatures seems so cheeting and not in setting? ...

The original intent of this mod (and others like it, such as DBDB) was to create fun thematic animals that are more aligned to the mountain and cave dwelling habits of dwarves. Instead of "not in setting", the idea was to expand on the setting, adding more weird hybrid concept animals and/or fantastical creatures that seemed "dwarfy". This game already has a strange union of real world materials and creatures and laws, along with unique and absurd fantasy elements.

The animals of this mod were intentionally designed to be "better" than the normal vanilla creatures, because I found that the standard domestic animals were a pretty lack-luster part of the game. The vast majority of these animals were only good for purchasing from caravans for immediate slaughter to obtain their bones/skin/meat (with the exception of cats for vermin control). There was/is no real incentive to care for, bred, and expand your animal herds when so many other industries provide what you need for far less effort and time spent waiting (and impact on your FPS). All of this is particularly true when preparing for embark.

All of the "best" animals in vanilla (such as GCS's, Giant Grizzly Bears, saltwater crocs) are exotic pets that you needed to find and tame for yourself, which is a rewarding but unpredictable experience. This much is very true.

... Start as simple mod with remove exotic from cave pets/mounts/others and decline dwarven acces to common domestic animals. Add some tokens to vanilla cave animals. And only after it - add a little new creatures for needed functions.

I was and am strongly considering this; the use of biome restricted animal taming to make civs more unique and have some variation between worldgens.  Given how entity animal usage tokens have changed (i.e. been added) since I originally started working on mods back in v0.34, this feature would have been a lot of work and super buggy, but the new animal_always_available entity tag and others like it fixes a lot of the original problems (some common animals need to be retained to insure all civs have access to wagon pullers and pack animals).  When I push out some updates of this, I'm thinking of having replacement/enhancement/civilization versions that will either replace, add to, or completely revamp the use of domestic animals by civs, and the degree of replacement desired.

[Thuellai]

I'd appreciate a simple update to this mod just to get to have these creatures back, and then I'd definitely like to see your new ideas.  But mostly just seeing a new .44 version of this would be cool, I miss having these guys in my game

[Wannabehero]

Well, it has been a long time coming, but finally, I have updated DDD to DF v0.44.12!

New mod files are linked in the OP 1st page.

I've revamped some old graphics, and drawn some completely new sprites for 32px graphics sets!  We didn't have those back in my day!

16px Sprite Sheet (Upsized 2x for ease of viewing)



32px Sprite Sheet (Upsized 2x for ease of viewing)


I also wrote a very simple installer script in python that adds the necessary animal tags to the entity_default.txt file, and tweaks the MAKE_MEAD reaction in the reaction_other.txt file, so that this mod won't overwrite already modded versions of DF.  I am just a little baby when it comes to python, but all my testing has it working perfectly.  If you don't feel comfortable running the DDD_installer.exe file, or it doesn't work, the DDD_readme file has some directions on the small changes that need to be made to activate your new DDD creatures.

[Asin]

I am curious about your future plans for this mod, which if I'm understanding right, will change up the domestic creatures for the other races too?

[Wannabehero]

Yep Asin, my plan is to eventually rework the domestic animal list so that there are some themes about which races/civs have which animals, with some chance for civs to have different animals each game based on starting biomes. It would also help reduce the amount of redundant animals available at embark.

There would be a short list of actual common domestic animals, that all civs would have, something like:

• Dogs
• Cats
• Chickens
• Pigs

Then we define additional animals based on civilizations using the entity ANIMAL tags.  For instance lets look at dwarves.  It makes sense for them to have the following animals as domestic creatures, due to them being mountainous animals

• Yaks
• Llamas
• Alpacas
• Mountain Goats

And then for humans, who prefer plains/grasslands, they might have animals like:

• Horses
• Donkeys/Mules
• Sheep
• Goats
• Cows

And of course, elves have just about everything because of their racial civ special.

Each current domestic animal would have biomes assigned to them so they can show up in the wild and can possibly be tamed by the starting civilizations. Some Example Biome reworks for current domestic animals could be:

• Turkeys:  forests, temperate savanna, marshes and swamps
• Horses:  any savanna, grassland, and shrubland
• Ducks:  any wet biome (marshes, swamps, lakes)
• Reindeer:  tundra and taiga
• Guineafowl: savannas, semi-deserts (badlands and wastelands, but not sandy), and tropical forests

Some care would need to be taken to make sure each civ is still guaranteed some basic functions, like wool/cheese source, a wagon puller, a pack animal, and a mount.  From there, we can start creating some new themed animals for the different civs.  I'm thinking some kobold specific and goblin specific creatures, to spice things up and give some additional benefit to raids on other civs sights for livestock.  I've already got a few ideas that need to be fleshed out:

Slurk   
A large saber-toothed toad that dwells in evil fetid swamps and wet caves.  Beware its nauseating mucus.  Kobolds and goblins can sometimes train these monsters for war and ride them into battle.

Scutterpede   
An enormous armored centipede with a venomous sting. Difficult and dangerous to raise, the armored scales of these creatures can be harvested to make a superior organic armor.

Giant Cave Locust   
Why the kobolds began breeding cave crickets to enormous size is anyone's guess, but the result is a huge leaping beast with corrosive spit.

Walrusbat   
Once upon a time, a Walrus and a Bat fell in love. The result is a strange breed of flying tusked monsters with valuable ivory and a prodigious amount of fat.

Giant Cave Racer   
An enormous snail with a curling metallic shell.  Don't be fooled by their appearance, these snails are fast and potentially very dangerous.  Their shells can be melted down to yield the valuable metals they have dissolved from the cavern rock.

[DerMeister]

Yep Asin, my plan is to eventually rework the domestic animal list so that there are some themes about which races/civs have which animals, with some chance for civs to have different animals each game based on starting biomes. It would also help reduce the amount of redundant animals available at embark.

There would be a short list of actual common domestic animals, that all civs would have, something like:

• Dogs
• Cats
• Chickens
• Pigs

Then we define additional animals based on civilizations using the entity ANIMAL tags.  For instance lets look at dwarves.  It makes sense for them to have the following animals as domestic creatures, due to them being mountainous animals

• Yaks
• Llamas
• Alpacas
• Mountain Goats

And then for humans, who prefer plains/grasslands, they might have animals like:

• Horses
• Donkeys/Mules
• Sheep
• Goats
• Cows

And of course, elves have just about everything because of their racial civ special.

Each current domestic animal would have biomes assigned to them so they can show up in the wild and can possibly be tamed by the starting civilizations. Some Example Biome reworks for current domestic animals could be:

• Turkeys:  forests, temperate savanna, marshes and swamps
• Horses:  any savanna, grassland, and shrubland
• Ducks:  any wet biome (marshes, swamps, lakes)
• Reindeer:  tundra and taiga
• Guineafowl: savannas, semi-deserts (badlands and wastelands, but not sandy), and tropical forests

Some care would need to be taken to make sure each civ is still guaranteed some basic functions, like wool/cheese source, a wagon puller, a pack animal, and a mount.  From there, we can start creating some new themed animals for the different civs.  I'm thinking some kobold specific and goblin specific creatures, to spice things up and give some additional benefit to raids on other civs sights for livestock.  I've already got a few ideas that need to be fleshed out:

Slurk   
A large saber-toothed toad that dwells in evil fetid swamps and wet caves.  Beware its nauseating mucus.  Kobolds and goblins can sometimes train these monsters for war and ride them into battle.

Scutterpede   
An enormous armored centipede with a venomous sting. Difficult and dangerous to raise, the armored scales of these creatures can be harvested to make a superior organic armor.

Giant Cave Locust   
Why the kobolds began breeding cave crickets to enormous size is anyone's guess, but the result is a huge leaping beast with corrosive spit.

Walrusbat   
Once upon a time, a Walrus and a Bat fell in love. The result is a strange breed of flying tusked monsters with valuable ivory and a prodigious amount of fat.

Giant Cave Racer   
An enormous snail with a curling metallic shell.  Don't be fooled by their appearance, these snails are fast and potentially very dangerous.  Their shells can be melted down to yield the valuable metals they have dissolved from the cavern rock.

Idea of reworking vanilla domestic is good. But new animals must be more in setting. Look at my idea - large toad (like large rat, but toad) is dwarven alternative of cat. Goblin "cat" will be gremlin or strangler.

[Wannabehero]

Idea of reworking vanilla domestic is good. But new animals must be more in setting. Look at my idea - large toad (like large rat, but toad) is dwarven alternative of cat. Goblin "cat" will be gremlin or strangler.

It sounds like you've got your own ideas on what you would like for 'in setting' animals DerMeister.  Perhaps you could write up your own domestical animals overhaul mod and show us all!

In this mod, the dwarves don't use a toad in place of a cat to hunt vermin.  Instead, they use a moleweasel (a mole and weasel hybrid) or a large bat.  This was meant to keep with the dwarf fortress theme, or 'setting', as Toady already has put in some fun and fantasy animals like naked mole dogs, beak dogs, helmet snakes, and bugbats as examples. These types of 'hybrid' animals are, in my opinion, super fun which is why I made this mod.  That and because the vanilla domestic animals list is fairly boring and redundant (Sheep, Llamas, and Alpacas are all functionally the same animal, as an example).

[DerMeister]

Idea of reworking vanilla domestic is good. But new animals must be more in setting. Look at my idea - large toad (like large rat, but toad) is dwarven alternative of cat. Goblin "cat" will be gremlin or strangler.

It sounds like you've got your own ideas on what you would like for 'in setting' animals DerMeister.  Perhaps you could write up your own domestical animals overhaul mod and show us all!

In this mod, the dwarves don't use a toad in place of a cat to hunt vermin.  Instead, they use a moleweasel (a mole and weasel hybrid) or a large bat.  This was meant to keep with the dwarf fortress theme, or 'setting', as Toady already has put in some fun and fantasy animals like naked mole dogs, beak dogs, helmet snakes, and bugbats as examples. These types of 'hybrid' animals are, in my opinion, super fun which is why I made this mod.  That and because the vanilla domestic animals list is fairly boring and redundant (Sheep, Llamas, and Alpacas are all functionally the same animal, as an example).

Mole dog isn't hybrid of mole and dog, mole dog is just enlarged version of naked mole-rat (also called naked mole puppy, real creature). Alternative of large bat as cat is hungry head from vanilla, but they live deeper. Helmet snake is good as cat for kobolds and even dwarves. Helmet snake even can make snakesplosion. So vanilla cave animals can be reworked into dwarven domestic by adding features for make them usable.

[Superdorf]

Walrusbats? Saber-toothed toads?

You have made me so very happy. 

[DerMeister]

Idea of reworking vanilla domestic is good. But new animals must be more in setting. Look at my idea - large toad (like large rat, but toad) is dwarven alternative of cat. Goblin "cat" will be gremlin or strangler.

It sounds like you've got your own ideas on what you would like for 'in setting' animals DerMeister.  Perhaps you could write up your own domestical animals overhaul mod and show us all!

In this mod, the dwarves don't use a toad in place of a cat to hunt vermin.  Instead, they use a moleweasel (a mole and weasel hybrid) or a large bat.  This was meant to keep with the dwarf fortress theme, or 'setting', as Toady already has put in some fun and fantasy animals like naked mole dogs, beak dogs, helmet snakes, and bugbats as examples. These types of 'hybrid' animals are, in my opinion, super fun which is why I made this mod.  That and because the vanilla domestic animals list is fairly boring and redundant (Sheep, Llamas, and Alpacas are all functionally the same animal, as an example).

Also I not use sheep, llama and alpaca, I use trolls.

[Wannabehero]

Found a slight error in the graphics.txt files for the original uploads (incorrect file title line for the 32px graphics file).  Fixed, should work fine now.

[FantasticDorf]

Walrusbats? Saber-toothed toads?

You have made me so very happy. 

I would have thought the walrusbat would have used its tusks to hang onto rock walls for support instead of hang upside down because of its body fat, the themes are good but aren't shaggy dogs technically a class group of 'dogs' because for dwarves they fufill the same purpose?

Taking the modification 'dog breeds 1.0' and other things 'dog' is described to be a indistinguishable mutt, so i wouldn't personally think it would be extra crucial to add them to dwarves, or least offer other races a caste of dog to use and allow dogs to remain under the domestic tag as they are.

Could also argue crag boars are also pretty decent substitute for sows entirely on body mass and tusks unless anything significant changed like nerfing them to be grazers (would you consider nerfing some dwarven animals to be grazers? There are a lot of omnivorous/herbivore utility creatures in this modification that could be lorewise moss grass feeders)

[Wannabehero]

I would have thought the walrusbat would have used its tusks to hang onto rock walls for support instead of hang upside down because of its body fat, the themes are good but aren't shaggy dogs technically a class group of 'dogs' because for dwarves they fufill the same purpose?

Taking the modification 'dog breeds 1.0' and other things 'dog' is described to be a indistinguishable mutt, so i wouldn't personally think it would be extra crucial to add them to dwarves, or least offer other races a caste of dog to use and allow dogs to remain under the domestic tag as they are.

Could also argue crag boars are also pretty decent substitute for sows entirely on body mass and tusks unless anything significant changed like nerfing them to be grazers (would you consider nerfing some dwarven animals to be grazers? There are a lot of omnivorous/herbivore utility creatures in this modification that could be lorewise moss grass feeders)

Badgerdogs are not meant to be actual canides (the family of dogs, wolves, jackals, coyotes), but are a dog/wolf sized mustelid (the family of weasels, ferrets, otters, badgers, wolverines). They are a "dog" in the same sense that a beak dog or a naked mole dog is a "dog", they are a medium-large carnivore that is trainable.  It's purely a naming convention thing that Toady has established in the world of DF.

If I were to give dwarves their own actual dog species, it would be something like a Mountain Mastiff or similar, that dwarves could use as mounts.

And you are right!  Cragboars and pretty much every animal in this mod are better substitutes than the vanilla creatures.  This was intentional.  I didn't want to make these creatures busted, but they also need to be worthwhile to be worth investing time/resources to have them in your fortress.  This is because, in vanilla, there are only a few actual animals that are worthwhile; they are way better than all the rest, and pet prices are super screwy.

The best domestic animals:

• Cats: Only vermin killer
• Dogs: Only trainable
• Goats: Cheapest (and best) milk/horn/hoof/meat source with lowest grazing requirements (dogs are the best pure meat source)
• Sheep: Cheapest (and best) wool source, otherwise identical to goat
• Pigs: Only milkable animal that doesn't require grazing

Llamas and Alpacas are just more expensive sheep that offer almost no real benefit to warrant their double price tag and harsher grazing requirements. The only thing that makes them different from sheep is they are larger, which only amounts to ~30% more meat, double the bones, and a few more wool, but for twice the cost.

Horses, donkeys, yaks, water buffalo, reindeer, and cows are all essentially the same animal, with a little variation in total butchering products.  A yak or water buffalo is a better cow in almost every way, except it is only 2/3 the price of a cow.  Makes no sense.

All the birds are a mess.  If you only want eggs, then Turkeys are the way to go.  If you want to butcher your birds for meat/leather/bone, then Geese or Blue Peafowl are the only real options (Turkeys are an ok alternative, but you have to wait 2 years for them to grow to adults, which is silly).

All of this is only if you care about efficiency.  It is a game afterall, and so you will bring the animals you like, balance be damned.  And if that is the case, then who cares if these new animals are "better" by a little bit?  They're easier to manage, and provide your dwarves with more things to do. Its all meant for fun.