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Author Topic: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?  (Read 20744 times)

Nyan Thousand

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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2013, 07:29:14 am »

From what I've gathered from the hundreds of times this question has come up, it basically boils down to Dwarf Fortress being Toady and Three-toe's project - they don't want it forked, they don't want contributions, they don't want people insisting that the way so-and-so did it is better or that they should add so-and-so's feature, etc.

Fun fact: Toady hated coding the UI so he had somebody else code it for him once. It's a single exception that unlikely to happen ever again, but it's some useless trivia that's fun to think about.
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Trif

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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2013, 08:10:52 am »

From what I've gathered from the hundreds of times this question has come up, it basically boils down to Dwarf Fortress being Toady and Three-toe's project - they don't want it forked, they don't want contributions, they don't want people insisting that the way so-and-so did it is better or that they should add so-and-so's feature, etc.

Fun fact: Toady hated coding the UI so he had somebody else code it for him once. It's a single exception that unlikely to happen ever again, but it's some useless trivia that's fun to think about.
You're thinking of the graphics. Toady open-sourced them for some OpenGL upgrades, which brought about the SDL version with Mac and Linux compatibility, multithreading and tilesets.
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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2013, 09:39:28 pm »

I really don't think that if DF went open-source it would be endanger of being cloned any more than it has already been (Towns, Gnomoria, etc; all very much DF clones, albeit with a smaller scope and better graphics). If you knew enough programming to develop a game, you could easily duplicate DF simply by playing it and reading the wiki to learn how everything works, mechanically and then figure out your own way to code it.

From what I've seen Toady say about the game and his work on it, I would think that the main reason it's not open-source is because he likes working on it. It's his baby, and it also gets him attention. If he was to give out the code, Toady would probably see a lot less personal attention, fewer people would follow his original programming line and would splinter off into different mods, etc. Still splintering the fan base, but at a bigger cost to his "fame" than the way current mods split the community.

Money would be another thing. Game is free, but powered by donations; since he's the only one able to update it, it gives him more "power" for receiving donations. If it was open-source, he could potentially lose more donations as people move to a different development branch from someone else, who may also start accepting (and receiving) donations for their updates to the code over Toady's.

Personally, I don't really mind if it's open-source or not, but I would like more modding abilities. There's a lot you can do, but also a lot you can't. You can make new items, new creatures, new buildings, etc, but you can't really add new features; only change the names and stats of existing ones.
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Mr Space Cat

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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2013, 11:14:40 pm »

Then, of course, there's the aspect that this is everything Toady wants to achieve in his life. This is exactly his dream, his goal, his meaning to life, his forty-two. He turned down a degree in mathematic academia, a high paying job, for this. He eats one meal a day, wakes up at three in the afternoon and codes late late late into the night for several hours straight. I recall reading he subsists on sodas to help keep him awake and lessen headaches from exhaustion. And he still keeps doin' it.

Making it open-source would detract from Dwarf Fort's value, and him, and sorta dilute the whole process of creating the game in ways everyone else already posted. It's his masterpiece, giving other people the chance to work on it is like reducing the value of his life's effort.

I have much respect for the guy for following his goal so determinedly and confidently. He's a pretty cool guy.
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i2amroy

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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2013, 01:15:36 am »

He turned down a degree in mathematic academia
Actually he didn't. Right now Toady still holds a Ph.D in Mathematics from Stanford University. You can even view his dissertation thesis paper here.

Also as others have stated Toady wants to make the game exactly the way he wants it. That's why he's turned down multi-million dollar offers to buy it, even with the offer to remain on as head dev, because he would have to change his vision.

And also as others have mentioned, the game's code will be released in the event of Toady's death, unless said cause of death is a murder, in which case it will not (so everybody pray that Toady isn't ever shot by a rouge gunman or anything similar :P).
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Scelly9

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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2013, 01:18:18 am »

He turned down a degree in mathematic academia
Actually he didn't. Right now Toady still holds a Ph.D in Mathematics from Stanford University. You can even view his dissertation thesis paper here.
He turned down a job in mathematic academia, if i remember correctly.
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zwei

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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2013, 02:16:51 am »

In addition, the DF code is probably a horrible, tangled mess of lettering indistinguishable from a foreign language that nobody quite understands. It would take years to get any new employees up to date on what the code does, and that would probably result in a total overhaul. It's not really worth the effort

I think years is overestimating a lot. Any developer can cut their teeth on myriad tiny bugs and featutre requests.

What I am more afraid is that future toady would be in similar position - finding code he forgot he wrote and having to get up to speed on his own creation.

By making the source code public, they would invite a lot of criticism, and "suggestions" from other programmers, and be put under pressure to meet other people's visions of what the game should be - if they don't, then a fork of the game could usurp the main branch and strip toady of what is essentially the result of his seemingly endless strange mood (to put it in DF terms).

He already got enough criticism and suggestions from other programers and suggestion forum is full of other peoples visions.

What has already happened was that we now have "soft fork" - dfhack/threapist/sound and stone sense.

And well as inspired games like Goblin Camp, Gnomoria, Towns, Dorfs... whoa, it feels like genre has emerged. Even ill advised and failed attempt to make full clone.

---

I don't care whether it is his employee, contributor from opensource or his brother (or son), but another set of eyes would be incredibly helpfull.

And there are thing that he alone could do. For example using source revision repository.

adityarajbhatt

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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2013, 06:51:56 am »

From what I've gathered from the hundreds of times this question has come up, it basically boils down to Dwarf Fortress being Toady and Three-toe's project - they don't want it forked, they don't want contributions, they don't want people insisting that the way so-and-so did it is better or that they should add so-and-so's feature, etc.
By making the source code public, they would invite a lot of criticism, and "suggestions" from other programmers, and be put under pressure to meet other people's visions of what the game should be - if they don't, then a fork of the game could usurp the main branch and strip toady of what is essentially the result of his seemingly endless strange mood (to put it in DF terms).

Basically, this is toady's masterpiece, and he wants it to remain his. Open sourcing it during his lifetime would put that at risk, and while it may not be likely, there is a chance that he could essentially lose everything he's worked so hard to create once other people are free to modify and criticize.

Dwarf Fortress has never been about the money, so arguing that donations would increase is pointless - If it was about money he has had opportunities to monetize the game before. The fact that it is still after all this time based on donations is a testament to his devotion to the dream, regardless of the financial payoff. 

Edit: And I'm saying this as someone who is very much in favour of free software - personally, I would love it if DF were re-licensed under the GPL, and I'm sorta hoping that toady will do something like this in his will, but as long as he's still able to work on it, he has his reasons for keeping the code closed.
   

Nice answer. Cleared up all my doubts. One thing to note is that I wasn't trying too get him to release the code just to earn money. It was just that people seem to think that open source leads them to lose money when it is quite the opposite. I simply didn't think it from his point of view (the pressure on him to develop the game the way others want and not him). After all, it *is* his baby. So yeah, its better to drop the idea.

Thanks for the detailed answer Jenniretta. :D
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Mr Space Cat

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Re: Why isn't dwarf fortress open-source?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2013, 07:32:20 am »

He turned down a degree in mathematic academia
Actually he didn't. Right now Toady still holds a Ph.D in Mathematics from Stanford University. You can even view his dissertation thesis paper here.
He turned down a job in mathematic academia, if i remember correctly.
Close enough, it's been a while since I read the articles I got all that info from. I know he did pass on the academia job though.
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