Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Blind dwarf science  (Read 12477 times)

itg

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Blind dwarf science
« on: April 30, 2013, 08:44:19 pm »

So, I managed to trap a dusty forgotten beast with the intent of making a death chamber, but it turns out I got something even better. The dust blinds with no other ill effects. This is the first time I've had the opportunity to blind dwarves, or anything else, for that matter, in a controlled manner. It's a great opportunity to test the behavior and abilities of blind dwarves, and maybe blind goblins, too. What do we know so far? What needs more research? Anything else particularly sadistic fun I should try?

Here's the save in case you want to do some Science of your own:

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7618

Results so far:

Trading:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Engraving:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Masonry:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Carpentry:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hunting:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Urist Da Vinci

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL: ENGINEER:4]
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 09:38:54 pm »


Tests to perform on blind dwarves:
- melee combat skill difference (normal dwarf vs himself while blind)
- ranged combat difference (both as the blind shooter and as the blind victim)
- quality of crafted items
- How does a blind civilian react to a nearby goblin?
- Can blind dwarves still see and admire things like statues, traps, or animals in zoo cages?
- Can you track dust into the trade depot and blind the caravans?
- Is a blind trader good at appraising the value of goods or making deals?
- Is farming skill or results affected by blind farmers?
- Are blind siege operators any good?
- Blind hunting, blind fishing?

Drazinononda

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm really too normal to play this game so much.`
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 10:39:03 pm »

Blind dwarf science is all well and good, but you should have a third party conduct the tests for you so your own biases don't skew the results. Then the tests would be...

Double blind.

*ba dum chsh*
Logged
Children you rescue shouldn't behave like rabid beasts.  I guess your regular companions shouldn't act like rabid beasts either.
I think that's a little more impossible than I'm likely to have time for.

They Got Leader

  • Bay Watcher
  • Current Fortress:
    • View Profile
    • Steam Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 12:05:33 am »


Tests to perform on blind dwarves:
- melee combat skill difference (normal dwarf vs himself while blind)
- ranged combat difference (both as the blind shooter and as the blind victim)
- quality of crafted items
- How does a blind civilian react to a nearby goblin?
- Can blind dwarves still see and admire things like statues, traps, or animals in zoo cages?
- Can you track dust into the trade depot and blind the caravans?
- Is a blind trader good at appraising the value of goods or making deals?
- Is farming skill or results affected by blind farmers?
- Are blind siege operators any good?
- Blind hunting, blind fishing?

I think some tests have been done on blind dwarves before to note that they do not flee from enemies because they do not see them. However, they do make good siege engineers because siege weapons only shoot the direction they are facing and these dwarves do not become afraid when enemies get close. Lastly, I remember someone talking about how dwarves in the martial trance state need no sight to fight well. I will have to forum lurk for a bit and see if I can find the research.

Blind dwarf science is all well and good, but you should have a third party conduct the tests for you so your own biases don't skew the results. Then the tests would be...

Double blind.

*ba dum chsh*

You, there. Sir. Please die in a couch fire. (+1 point for your pun usage)
Logged
Quote from: Urist McDwarfFortress
You do not understand the ways of Toady One. He is not a business, he's just a guy trying to make a fun game. He's invited people to come along and experience the journey with him (and help him test it out as he goes along). At the end of the day, I don't think his main goal is to sell Dwarf Fortress, its just to create the best game possible.

slothen

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 09:13:59 am »

siege engineers are terrible no matter what you do.  Test out something cooler.

Does a blind dwarf dodge arrows?
Other combat tests.
Quality level of crafts.
Logged
While adding magma to anything will make it dwarfy, adding the word "magma" to your post does not necessarily make it funny.
Thoughts on water
MILITARY: squad, uniform, training
"DF doesn't mold players into its image - DF merely selects those who were always ready for DF." -NW_Kohaku

Nyan Thousand

  • Bay Watcher
  • It's exactly nyan thousand!
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 10:58:48 am »

Question: what is the difference between a blind dwarf and one that's been modded to have no eyes?
Logged

Trapezohedron

  • Bay Watcher
  • No longer exists here.
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 11:08:00 am »

Question: what is the difference between a blind dwarf and one that's been modded to have no eyes?

[EXTRAVISION].

A creature with extravision will be able to see no matter what happens to its eyes. A creature with no extravision and eyes is, as you'd expect, blind.
Logged
Thank you for all the fish. It was a good run.

Sutremaine

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:ATROCITY: PERSONAL_MATTER]
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 02:55:56 pm »

Lastly, I remember someone talking about how dwarves in the martial trance state need no sight to fight well. I will have to forum lurk for a bit and see if I can find the research.
Not research, but an an adventurer.
Logged
I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

Nyan Thousand

  • Bay Watcher
  • It's exactly nyan thousand!
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2013, 07:07:26 pm »

Question: what is the difference between a blind dwarf and one that's been modded to have no eyes?

[EXTRAVISION].

A creature with extravision will be able to see no matter what happens to its eyes. A creature with no extravision and eyes is, as you'd expect, blind.
I see. But what if we mod the dwarves to be blind from the get go? Or maybe we could make a caste of blind dwarves versus seeing ones and compare.
Logged

Meph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • worldbicyclist
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 11:12:54 pm »

Hasnt this all been done before?  ??? Blind archers shoot in a random direction, blind civilians will ignore enemies till melee, blind fighters will ignore enemies till melee, but will react normally to kill and move commands, as soon as they start melee they never leave their target till its dead, blind siege engineers shoot as well as before, but wont run away... (sorry to spoil the fun)
Logged
::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Urist Da Vinci

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL: ENGINEER:4]
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 11:28:49 pm »

Hasnt this all been done before?  ??? Blind archers shoot in a random direction, blind civilians will ignore enemies till melee, blind fighters will ignore enemies till melee, but will react normally to kill and move commands, as soon as they start melee they never leave their target till its dead, blind siege engineers shoot as well as before, but wont run away... (sorry to spoil the fun)

It doesn't hurt to verify the old results in the latest version of the game. Peer review and all that. For example, the blind archer randomly shooting was from 40d or an earlier version.

itg

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2013, 08:59:56 am »

Hasnt this all been done before?  ??? Blind archers shoot in a random direction, blind civilians will ignore enemies till melee, blind fighters will ignore enemies till melee, but will react normally to kill and move commands, as soon as they start melee they never leave their target till its dead, blind siege engineers shoot as well as before, but wont run away... (sorry to spoil the fun)

As far as I can tell, it's virtually all rumors and anecdotal evidence. At any rate, I haven't found anything with the forum's awful search function. Even if we know what results to expect, it'll be nice to have some quantitative data. Yeah, we know blind dwarves are worse at crafting, but how much worse, etc.

I haven't had much time for DF the last few days, but here are some early results:




Trading

Subject:

Goden Sarveshtimnar, broker

Relevant skills:

Legendary Appraiser
Novice judge of intent
Novice negotiator
Novice in 5-6 conversational skills

Prodedure:

The trader offered a highly favorable trade to maximize human merchant's disposition, then offered a variety of trades to gauge the minimum profit margin the merchant would accept. For simplicity, I assumed factors other than profit margin would average out. The trader was blinded, then the experiment was repeated.

Results:

Sighted, the trader was able to see prices and judge the merchant's disposition as usual. I didn't record the exact items traded, but it seemed very consistent over about 10 trades that the merchant required a profit margin of just over 30%.

Blind, the trader could see prices, but he could not judge the merchant's disposition. The trader's negotiating abilities appeared to suffer, as the merchant tended to demand a profit margin closer to 50%.

This wasn't a fully rigorous experiment. Ideally, one would make a logical series of trades with the sighted dwarf, record them, savescum, blind the dwarf, repeat those trades, then compare the results. I think it gets the point across, though.




Engraving

Subject:

Udil Lertethfath

Relevant skills:

Legendary Engraver

Procedure:

The dwarf was locked in a 12x17 room and ordered to smooth and engrave it. She was then blinded and given an identical room to smooth and engrave.

Results:

The blind dwarf smoothed and engraved at exactly the same speed as she did when she could see. The quality of engravings took a serious hit, though. The data:

Sighted:

Masterful - 57
Exceptional - 147
Total - 204

Blind:

Masterful - 24
Exceptional - 105
Superior - 70
Fine - 5
Total - 204

The subject matter of engravings did not seem to be affected. The fine-quality engraving seemed more likely to be simplistic (they usually are, I think), but the sample size was too small to make a conclusive judgment.

It would be nice to figure out the effective skill level of the blind engraver, probably by having a dwarf at each skill level engrave a 12x17 room, then comparing that data to my results above. I only have legendaries and non-engravers on hand, so that's a project that will have to wait unless someone else wants to help out.

Urist Da Vinci

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL: ENGINEER:4]
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2013, 01:38:04 am »

How are you getting dwarves into the dusting room?

laularukyrumo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Needs More Socks
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2013, 01:44:59 am »

Interestingly, it's surprising nobody's thought to go the modding route for a reliable source of blindness. It's not hard to make an interaction with the tag that lets you enable it in arena mode, similar to how you spawn vamps/werecreatures/undead/necromancers/whatever, and make it blind creatures with laser precision. For bonus points, since you'd have to use a syndrome granted by interaction anyways, you could slap the syndrome onto a plant and give it [SYN_INGESTED] for fort/adv mode testing outside of arena.

But grats on the catch, dude.
Logged
Quote from: Dwarfotaur
Everytime one of my militia has given birth in the Danger Room, it's lead to instant baby smoothies for everyone.

Gotta Catch 'Em All!

Dat Sig Thread

Urist Da Vinci

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL: ENGINEER:4]
    • View Profile
Re: Blind dwarf science
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2013, 02:28:34 am »

Interestingly, it's surprising nobody's thought to go the modding route for a reliable source of blindness. It's not hard to make an interaction with the tag that lets you enable it in arena mode, similar to how you spawn vamps/werecreatures/undead/necromancers/whatever, and make it blind creatures with laser precision. For bonus points, since you'd have to use a syndrome granted by interaction anyways, you could slap the syndrome onto a plant and give it [SYN_INGESTED] for fort/adv mode testing outside of arena.

But grats on the catch, dude.

OK, doing this.

Interesting. Blind creatures, even with grand master dodging, won't dodge incoming attacks. They aren't helpless like unconscious creatures, and armor still provides the usual protection, but they really suck at combat. The blind creatures don't attempt to find creatures that shoot at them from a distance either - they just stand there and take it.

You can enter and exit stealth with a line of sight to a blind creature - when the game says that you can't hide because someone can see you, it really means it! You can only be detected if you occupy the same tile as a blind creature - attacking it from an adjacent tile doesn't ruin your stealth.
Pages: [1] 2