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Author Topic: 90% of fortress-born dwarves & animals are 1/10th normal size (fixed in LNP)  (Read 91996 times)

Larix

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #210 on: June 06, 2013, 06:55:25 am »

And as Sutremaine said, you can't armor up miner Dwarfs cause of a hard coded miner/woodcutter/hunter uniform. There was a work around to it found here. I tried fiddling with it last week, but it kicked my ass.

The posts in that thread are a year and a half old, so were for an older version. And the description is so vague i never understood what you actually were supposed to do. In 0.34.11, i'm not aware of anyone claiming to successfully put miners/hunters/woodcutters in armour while working at their 'uniformed' job.

As to bears - fortress-born war bears should be roughly equal in power to fully-grown war dogs, maybe even war leopards. So they're clearly not useless, just a lot less useful than what was intended. And keeping a bunch of grizzlies around is a good idea in any case - they give nice butchery returns and have high value (3x, i think).

Remember that we've already compensated for the weakness of war animals without knowing the actual cause - the doctrine of employing war animals as meatshields, early warning systems and distractions is based on the observation that they have little individual combat power. Knowing the cause doesn't magically make this doctrine useless.
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Deepblade

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #211 on: June 06, 2013, 08:31:39 am »

Fricy was right, nothin' in talk #21 about it.
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Deepblade's Standardized Creature Parts, for when you're pissed about all the different types of animal products there are.

Raphite1

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #212 on: June 06, 2013, 09:51:51 am »

I guess I'll slaughter all those bears I've been breeding. Major letdown there.

It's a pretty trivial edit to the raws to make them be born at adult size. There should be no need to give up on your bear population.

ajg1g12

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #213 on: June 06, 2013, 10:34:34 am »

Hi all,

I've been following this thread for some time, I was just wondering whether someone could summarise the effects that this bug has on the game as it stands?

Many thanks.
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Deepblade

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #214 on: June 06, 2013, 10:57:15 am »

In dwarves, dwarven dwarfism, while considerably dwarfy, make combat rolls less favorable. This is hardly noticeable with edged attacks, but considerably so with blunt weapons. It oddly doesn't affect punching/kicking that badly according to VerdantSF.
For animals it means 2 things. 1. Makes them butcher for less bones, meat, organs, and fat. 2. Considerably weakens their combat capabilities, since damage is directly linked to size.
For everyone it also reduces amount of fall damage taken. If you're landing on someone/something though you kinda wanna be bigger for extra damage.
For players the affects range anywhere from indifference, amazement, and even to frothing at the mouth from rage that a bug this big could exist this long.

It doesn't appear to affect the dwarf's ability to wear Dwarf sized armor interestingly enough. I think that's all that have been thought of, found out, and/or mentioned in the thread. I haven't been involved with any testing, I've just been reading and stuff like this sticks in my head. I'm sure there's something I forgot too
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pisskop

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #215 on: June 06, 2013, 11:01:04 am »

they bleed out quick and suffer in any sizedbbased event.  i.e. wrestling, wielding weapons.   I wonder if transforming them would fix it.

Edit: no wonder theyre afraid of falcons!n
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:03:28 am by pisskop »
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VerdantSF

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #216 on: June 06, 2013, 11:27:55 am »

Even if pickaxes are decent for native military dwarves, they still need to multigrasp and can't weild shields too, except in the luckier cases.

Actually, even though Edem II multigrasps when he doesn't have a shield, he wields a pickaxe just fine in one hand when he does have a shield.  Ditto for the other tiny soldiers.

Edem II's inventory
Emnanges
Stigilkodor


Any penalties to hit from wielding a multigrasp item in one hand are easily overcome by skill.  Sure, tiny dwarves have less blood, but I see that as a challenge.  My fort is 40 years old and is still going strong :D.  I don't use danger rooms and my soldiers have defeated over 700 enemies with only 10 deaths, and half of those were tiny war grizzlies.  The bug is annoying, but with a few simple changes, it's easily overcome.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:54:19 am by VerdantSF »
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BlackFlyme

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #217 on: June 06, 2013, 11:41:31 am »

It doesn't appear to affect the dwarf's ability to wear Dwarf sized armor interestingly enough.

If I remember correctly, that's because equipment is calculated by racial size rather than by a creature's individual size. If the wearer is not of the same race as the creator of an item, it then compares the wearer's racial size compared to the creator's racial size. If it is within an acceptable limit, then it can be worn, otherwise it will label the equipment as being too large or small. Though if you were to mod a race where there was one caste several times larger than the other, both castes could wear the same clothes. Though I may be wrong.

Back on topic, it is worth mentioning that some creatures and dwarves do grow up as intended. Though why some do and some don't is still unknown.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 12:15:07 pm by BlackFlyme »
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Deepblade

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #218 on: June 06, 2013, 12:11:14 pm »

Maybe it's a weird trait bug? Or, possibly a small window of opportunity where it thinks about growing up critters. what is the birthday of those Dwarves that did grow up properly? Maybe adamantine is slightly radioactive and is having a profound effect on our dwarves several generations later. Maybe the world is such a bleak place no one wants to grow up?  31.25 didn't have the problem, yes? So, what may have been changed that may relate to growing?
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BlackFlyme

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #219 on: June 06, 2013, 12:39:10 pm »

Maybe it's a weird trait bug? Or, possibly a small window of opportunity where it thinks about growing up critters. what is the birthday of those Dwarves that did grow up properly? Maybe adamantine is slightly radioactive and is having a profound effect on our dwarves several generations later. Maybe the world is such a bleak place no one wants to grow up?  31.25 didn't have the problem, yes? So, what may have been changed that may relate to growing?

That's part of the problem; we don't know when this bug started. It's assumed that it actually started in DF2010.

I have been reflecting on this, and I don't believe this affected the time period when people set up merpeople farms.

You're probably right.  People were going over butchering results with a fine-toothed comb back then.

I believe that the merfolk farm was back in 40d, and my own farming experiences in 40d make me think that animals were growing up just fine. The additional butchering products (organs, etc) were added in the following version: DF2010. DF2010 was a pretty big overhaul of the game and of bodies in particular, so my first guess is that this bug began there.

Yes, I agree. It's likely that this happened when Toady rewrote the bodies code in the transition from 40d to 31.xx, given that the merpeople farming was a 40d phenomenon. That was the last major time the bodies code was fiddled with on a massive scale.
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Black_Legion

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #220 on: June 06, 2013, 01:06:17 pm »

I made a post linking this thread in the Modding forum. I'll try and update that one with any workarounds or other information so it can help modders address the issue in their own mods. Thanks to all of you for a remarkable instance of community-led investigation.

Link to modding thread: Fort-born creature size information for modders

As always good work.
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anzelm

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #221 on: June 06, 2013, 03:03:13 pm »

The bug is annoying, but with a few simple changes, it's easily overcome.

This. One of my current forts is over 20 years now, over half of my population is trained military (about a hundred warriors), the fort is open all year round, And I have lost 1 dwarf per 200 enemies on average so far (1000+ dead goblins and ogres).

Then again, it's good that it got discovered now, closer to the end of the release cycle.
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crossmr

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #222 on: June 06, 2013, 06:40:50 pm »

It doesn't appear to affect the dwarf's ability to wear Dwarf sized armor interestingly enough.

If I remember correctly, that's because equipment is calculated by racial size rather than by a creature's individual size. If the wearer is not of the same race as the creator of an item, it then compares the wearer's racial size compared to the creator's racial size. If it is within an acceptable limit, then it can be worn, otherwise it will label the equipment as being too large or small. Though if you were to mod a race where there was one caste several times larger than the other, both castes could wear the same clothes. Though I may be wrong.

Back on topic, it is worth mentioning that some creatures and dwarves do grow up as intended. Though why some do and some don't is still unknown.

Well that's something that can definitely be investigated if some are growing up and some aren't.
Again, I'm willing to start comparing and crunching numbers if someone can tell me how they're pulling all unit info/flags/etc from dfhack
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Kurik Amudnil

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #223 on: June 06, 2013, 07:36:02 pm »

I have updated unit-info-viewer.  Fixed a bug and updated my body size calculation so that it should now be accurate (should match butcher products size) for any unit that first spawned fully grown. Link in sig

...
Back on topic, it is worth mentioning that some creatures and dwarves do grow up as intended. Though why some do and some don't is still unknown.

Well that's something that can definitely be investigated if some are growing up and some aren't.
Again, I'm willing to start comparing and crunching numbers if someone can tell me how they're pulling all unit info/flags/etc from dfhack

What I have been doing, is using my unit-info-viewer bound to Alt-I to see the two sizes and my estimation of what it should be for their age, and then using gui/gm-editor bound to Alt-E to look at the other fields.  Still slightly tedious but not as bad as using printall in the lua console.

I don't have any idea as to why babies are often born significantly bigger than I expect of them and am in the process of making a science blob of muscle (adding other tissues later) so that I can try to see how muscle thickening affects the size of the creature.

Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Fortress-born dwarves & animals are not growing to adult size!
« Reply #224 on: June 06, 2013, 10:00:34 pm »

...
Well that's something that can definitely be investigated if some are growing up and some aren't.
Again, I'm willing to start comparing and crunching numbers if someone can tell me how they're pulling all unit info/flags/etc from dfhack

I just use the following lua script:
Code: [Select]
unit=dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit()
if unit==nil then
print ("No unit under cursor!  Aborting with extreme prejudice.")
return
end

printall(unit)

I modify the printall command to print unit.flags3, unit.relations, unit.body, etc. as I experiment. I leave the lua script open in notepad and save it after changes, since you don't have to restart DF to use a modified script. This is an inefficient method to dump all creature info, and isn't exactly easy to share with other people as compared to a long script that dumps everything. I have used this method for most of my DFHack experimenting on other topics.
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