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[680]

with all this talk of 3D and graphics and the like, its bound to scare some of the newer croud away, some of the old to soon (namely me) i cant tell you how to make it but, i think graphics should be one of or near one of the last things implemented, i VERY much prefer 2d top down and the like, itll save time i think. if anyone has any opinions about 3d and the like, speak now

[Toady One]

As I said before, I'm actually not a big 3D fan.  I've asked a number of times for suggestions regarding the display of the three-dimensional maps, because I can't find a 2D graphics solution for all of the problems that come up with display (the game was originally done in ASCII, but that didn't work.  Isometric didn't work either).  Changing the graphics system is better than removing the Z coordinate from the game or scuttling it entirely.

Also, the top-down view isn't really going to be altered that much.  I hate first person games for the most part...  they don't do justice to the neck

[ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[Alanor]

One of the problems is that quite simpily the graphics needs to be implemented early on.. becuase there are so many things based upon the graphics engine.  In some cases we will be able to leave graphics off til later.. but for the main system.. the graphics really needs to work for us to get anywhere in displaying whats going on.  Tarn and I agree that we are not going to some first person shooter game where there is no game play left.  We are not the rest of the gaming community.. I thought thats why YOU were HERE!  I think that one thing that we hold above is integrity.  We arnt going to do a half-a** job on it and then leave it because it needs to go to production.  Every single little bit of detail that we have planned needs to be implemented.. the problem is with a 2D graphics system we are running into obstacles that we cannot overcome in hte 2D world.  
How do you represend the third dimension from top view? you dont.
How do you see around the back side of a hill that your character can see in isometric mode?  
You go to 3D.  Thats what we are doing.
We arnt going to spend all of our time making it look beautiful.. Thats not the purpouse.  If in the long run.. after most of the game is implemented.. and there is a call for a graphics improvement.. we may do that.  The purpouse of this 3D change is to allow the possiblility of Armok to exist.

So dont get alienated...
We still want your ideas, we want the kind of ideas that will make a good game not just a pretty one.

In firey reverence of Armok, High lord on the blood throne.

-Alanor
Fire Priest of Armok

[680]

guess your right, just dont want it to get TOO comlicated (graphics wise) and you end up having to drop the project out of frustration. ive seen it with to many other promising games. and would there be modles used for the game and skins added on? because if so, the game would have to make complelty diffrent models for the random monsters and things like that. this is a great game, it has been from the beginning, keep up the good work!

[Toady One]

I know how that feels -- I've dropped a few projects before over graphics, so I'm going to keep the graphics on a tight leash this time around.

As far as models and skins and so on, yeah, that's the general idea.  However, there are at least two things that are going to keep the problems in check:

First of all, Armok hasn't quite gotten to the point where, say, lots of items are being added in at a feverish pace.  That comes a little later -- right now, we're laying down the conceptual framework.  This applies to the models.  At first, I'll make a few crappy models (one for humanoid,  quadraped, etc.), and different creatures will probably be differentiated by size and color (neither of these require making a new model).  Then, just as I'd add in three different basic item types and ten pieces of furniture further down the road, the models would also become more complicated and numerous.  Once the general Armok framework is in, there will be programming sessions devoted simply to bloating the number of items, spells, creatures, and perhaps the graphics bells and whistles as well.  Right now I'm just putting in enough to
a) see the basic 3D maps without having to scratch my head and puzzle out where things are
b) get a real interface up.

Secondly, each random creature doesn't need to have a separate model, at least not with its own image file for a skin and vertex lists and so on.  Just as the parts are stuck together and altered in the game to make the creature in the first place, vertex lists can be spliced and pieces of a few preset skins can be merged to form the creatures overall skin.  Each part or whole model can be scaled to any size, and the stick-figure animation framework can be warped to change the gait of the creature, etc.  This can be done by the game on the spot whenever a creature is loaded.  I don't have to sit in front of a 3D Modeling Program pulling out my rapidly thinning hair to do it.