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Author Topic: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.  (Read 10692 times)

GiglameshDespair

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2013, 05:16:12 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The NSA works primarily in overseas signals intelligence, and is only allowed to investigate domestically through a lengthy warrant from a federal judge and if there is ample evidence that the case is tied to overseas.
How greatly comforting to one one of us lesser beings who don't live in the united states.
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Cruxador

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2013, 08:46:57 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
One of the things that many people don't understand is that the government has been keeping tabs on US citizens since the Hoover era, but only those who are linked to overseas terror/spying. While this hysteria may get to insane extremes, i.e. the Palmer Raids and the Japanese internment, this is by far not something that's exactly news. The NSA works primarily in overseas signals intelligence, and is only allowed to investigate domestically through a lengthy warrant from a federal judge and if there is ample evidence that the case is tied to overseas. However, if it's something crucial and cannot wait for a warrant, then they maybe able to go ahead and tap.This is the exception though, not the rule.
Out of - how many was it? 1650? Warrant requests, zero were denied. A rubber stamp court does not constitute effective checks and balances.
Quote
Another thing to note is the fact that the NSA, FBI, or CIA does not have the time, money, or resources to continually keep track of 320 million American citizens.
Presumably this is why they have a private contractor doing it.
Quote
Tech companies such as Google, Facebook, Twitter, and so on keep a closer eye on American citizens out of the interest of advertising and sales. PRISM is essentially a giant dumpster for data, and simply means they have data on hand so it doesn't expire.
The highest irony of this is people who post about how horrible this is on Facebook while on Google Chrome, without using adblock, noscript, or ghostery.
Corporations have a clear motive - money. In addition, corporations do not and cannot arrest whistle-blowers, and have no reason to do anything other than target ads at you. While I agree that people should in general take an interest in their own security, google's targeted ads seem a heck of a lot less sinister than this. Of course, it's rather moot since Google and Facebook are both among the nine companies to whose servers these folks have direct access.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 08:52:55 pm by Cruxador »
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Draco18s

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2013, 09:35:07 pm »

Out of - how many was it? 1650? Warrant requests, zero were denied. A rubber stamp court does not constitute effective checks and balances.

See.  The funny thing about secret information requests is that the companies that get them can't even disclose that they turned it down or tried to fight it.

So how many, exactly, were denied?  A number greater than -1.
(that is, "at least zero" which while it may be exactly zero is not strictly equal to exactly zero)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 09:36:38 pm by Draco18s »
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Cruxador

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2013, 10:10:02 pm »

Out of - how many was it? 1650? Warrant requests, zero were denied. A rubber stamp court does not constitute effective checks and balances.

See.  The funny thing about secret information requests is that the companies that get them can't even disclose that they turned it down or tried to fight it.

So how many, exactly, were denied?  A number greater than -1.
(that is, "at least zero" which while it may be exactly zero is not strictly equal to exactly zero)
Subpoenas aren't turned down. That's not how things work. I'm talking about the request for warrants, which are made to a court, not the companies. Those are part of the data that Snowden made public.
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Draco18s

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2013, 10:24:01 pm »

Subpoenas aren't turned down. That's not how things work. I'm talking about the request for warrants, which are made to a court, not the companies. Those are part of the data that Snowden made public.

Again, because those documents were secret, secret too are the fights to not turn over information, which hasn't been leaked or disclosed.
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Cruxador

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2013, 11:59:34 pm »

Subpoenas aren't turned down. That's not how things work. I'm talking about the request for warrants, which are made to a court, not the companies. Those are part of the data that Snowden made public.

Again, because those documents were secret, secret too are the fights to not turn over information, which hasn't been leaked or disclosed.
Nobody does that. Do you really think a corporation is going to earn obstruction of justice charges to protect you from what (as far as they know) is an entirely deserved investigation? They're not.
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Draco18s

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2013, 07:02:06 am »

Nobody does that. Do you really think a corporation is going to earn obstruction of justice charges to protect you from what (as far as they know) is an entirely deserved investigation? They're not.

And how would you know?

I happened to actually hear a news article about it on the radio yesterday driving home.  Due to the short clip, I doubt I'll be able to find it again.
And I'll trust my news source over some random guy on an internet forum.
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Cruxador

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2013, 04:02:09 pm »

Nobody does that. Do you really think a corporation is going to earn obstruction of justice charges to protect you from what (as far as they know) is an entirely deserved investigation? They're not.

And how would you know?

I happened to actually hear a news article about it on the radio yesterday driving home.  Due to the short clip, I doubt I'll be able to find it again.
And I'll trust my news source over some random guy on an internet forum.
I saw it on the news too. Everyone did. But sure, it's true that it's theoretically possible that a corporation would risk criminal charges to illegally protect you from a warrant. It's also theoretically possible that the teller at your bank went on an undercover mission to steal back your taxes from the government and return them to you. But do you really think uninterested people are going to oppose the government to protect your rights? Especially without telling you about it. Not many people even do so to protect their own rights.
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Draco18s

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2013, 04:15:32 pm »

I saw it on the news too. Everyone did. But sure, it's true that it's theoretically possible that a corporation would risk criminal charges to illegally protect you from a warrant. It's also theoretically possible that the teller at your bank went on an undercover mission to steal back your taxes from the government and return them to you. But do you really think uninterested people are going to oppose the government to protect your rights? Especially without telling you about it. Not many people even do so to protect their own rights.

This argument sounds strangely similar to:

"Everything the government does is legal and any attempt do defend yourself against what the government does is illegal."
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Werdna

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2013, 04:53:15 pm »

Out of - how many was it? 1650? Warrant requests, zero were denied. A rubber stamp court does not constitute effective checks and balances.

See.  The funny thing about secret information requests is that the companies that get them can't even disclose that they turned it down or tried to fight it.

So how many, exactly, were denied?  A number greater than -1.
(that is, "at least zero" which while it may be exactly zero is not strictly equal to exactly zero)

He is referring to this, from public sources:

Quote
According to the 2012 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) Report, the Department of Justice submitted 1,856 applications to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), a 6.4% increase over 2011. Of the 1,856 search applications, 1,789 sought authority to conduct electronic surveillance. The FISC did not deny any of the applications, although one was withdrawn by the Government. However, the FISC did make modifications to 40 of the applications, including one from the 2011 reporting period. In addition to the FISA orders, the FBI sent 15,229 National Security Letter requests for information concerning 6,223 different U.S. persons. This is a modest decrease from the 16,511 requests sent in 2011. Almost no information is available about FISA surveillance beyond the figures contained in the annual FISA letter, sent to the Senate each year by the Department of Justice, Office of Legislative Affairs. EPIC has recommended greater reporting of FISC applications and opinions, similar to what is disclosed in the Federal Wiretap Reports.
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ORCACommander

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2013, 06:38:42 pm »

i have a plug in for firefox that sends over 100 queries an hour through the top 5 search engines using the top 20 most popular search terms
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Cruxador

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2013, 08:00:22 pm »

I saw it on the news too. Everyone did. But sure, it's true that it's theoretically possible that a corporation would risk criminal charges to illegally protect you from a warrant. It's also theoretically possible that the teller at your bank went on an undercover mission to steal back your taxes from the government and return them to you. But do you really think uninterested people are going to oppose the government to protect your rights? Especially without telling you about it. Not many people even do so to protect their own rights.

This argument sounds strangely similar to:

"Everything the government does is legal and any attempt do defend yourself against what the government does is illegal."
Well, yeah. You do realize the government is the one making the laws, right? And in fact they've made laws such that not honoring a valid subpoena gets you slapped with obstruction of justice charges.
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Draco18s

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2013, 08:08:07 pm »

Well, yeah. You do realize the government is the one making the laws, right? And in fact they've made laws such that not honoring a valid subpoena gets you slapped with obstruction of justice charges.

Just because government is the one making the laws doesn't mean they are above the law.
That's one of the reasons we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship.
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Cruxador

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2013, 08:18:08 pm »

Well, yeah. You do realize the government is the one making the laws, right? And in fact they've made laws such that not honoring a valid subpoena gets you slapped with obstruction of justice charges.

Just because government is the one making the laws doesn't mean they are above the law.
That's one of the reasons we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship.
You might be better off looking up words before you use them. The US government is a democratic republic, not a democracy. And if the government is the sole enforcement of the law, how are they not above it? Not that this is remotely pertinent.
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Draco18s

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Re: XKCD features Dwarf fortress.
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2013, 08:25:47 pm »

And if the government is the sole enforcement of the law, how are they not above it? Not that this is remotely pertinent.

We have this thing called "the courts."  I'm sure you've heard of Windsor v. United States?
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