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Author Topic: Gaming Pet Peeves  (Read 497583 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4140 on: March 29, 2017, 12:00:02 am »

(positive reviews... typically aren't trying to have a well rounded view of the game in question... A lot of them are just people trying to sell you the game)
That's usually because positive reviews are listing the pros.
Probably because they're positive reviews. Y'know, because the authors like what they're reviewing.

I am not condemning positive reviews. Only saying why negative reviews end up being essential.

There are positive reviews that give a whole view of a game. Those are the best kind... or ones that at least explain themselves and why they like it or highlight what exactly a game does that is so good.

The only positive reviews that I really dislike (that aren't like... blurbs) are usually emphatic and only shower a game with compliments without really getting into what those qualities are. You know the type "Ohh man the music is sooo good! and the combat is just soo fluid, and the graphics superb".
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 12:02:24 am by Neonivek »
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wierd

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4141 on: March 29, 2017, 12:04:22 am »

Most reviews I have seen are just confirmation bias, or worse, paid endorsements from publishers.

If you want a real skinny, you need to look on a message board for people who have played it, and take it with a grain of salt. (because somebody is always butthurt about something in the forums and try to take out their frustrations on the reader.)

Take for instance, the Andromeda thread here in this subforum. Lots of genuine dialog about the actual mechanics of the game, no paid endorsements, only a smattering of confirmation bias.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4142 on: March 29, 2017, 12:10:45 am »

I am reminded of when I asked the DC Universe Online people... "What level does this game get good?" and they immediately turned sour on me until I calmed them down and explained that I actually meant that literally and not as a put down.

The answer was level 30.

Mind you, in their case it wasn't "Fandom defense" but rather that the game had a lot of negativity surrounding it for a while and they were sick of it.

(For those who don't know... Most MMOs take their time before getting really good. Some wait until max level and others do so earlier)
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Egan_BW

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4143 on: March 29, 2017, 12:21:00 am »

Never trust humans about videogames. :P
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SeriousConcentrate

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4144 on: March 29, 2017, 12:22:50 am »

This is an incredibly specific pet peeve, but I just reminded myself of it. It's been like a decade and I am still super butthurt about the fact that Chronicles of the Sword in Soul Caliber 3 didn't make a return in subsequent games. That was like the best mode in any fighting game ever.
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4145 on: March 29, 2017, 12:40:56 am »

Most reviews I have seen are just confirmation bias, or worse, paid endorsements from publishers.

If you want a real skinny, you need to look on a message board for people who have played it, and take it with a grain of salt. (because somebody is always butthurt about something in the forums and try to take out their frustrations on the reader.)

Take for instance, the Andromeda thread here in this subforum. Lots of genuine dialog about the actual mechanics of the game, no paid endorsements, only a smattering of confirmation bias.

You might need larger grains of salt for certain forums.

Counter-example to yours: I once browsed for a Fallout forum to join, and the first forum (a pretty old and very much dead one called Duck and Cover) was full of people butthurt that New Vegas didn't come out as a sprite-based isometric RPG, with every single idea from the design documents perfectly implemented as written. This went well with the atmosphere of FO2 circlejerk and general nostalgia blinders. They didn't say anything about the game at all, just compared it to what they imagine Van Buren (prototype FO3 from pre-Bethesda days) would have been like; then, docked points for all the ways it was different from their wishful what-if scenario.

Gamers are, in a word, fanboys. Play the game and form your own opinion, or if there's significant money at stake then aggregate many reviews from multiple sources before you buy.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 12:42:38 am by itisnotlogical »
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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4146 on: March 29, 2017, 02:45:04 am »

You really don't want to ever go to forums closely involved with a game to judge it. Ever. In some rare instances the forums are overly positive for the game, but almost all the time the forums are filled to the brim with people that were outraged with the game.
It never matters how good the game is, because no matter how many people like it, there will be outraged people, and those people will look to a place to vent and will naturally all congregate at forums and communities related to the game. I gotta agree with itisnotlogical here.

Also "confirmation bias"? Not trying to argue any point here, wierd, but how's that relevant here? Isn't confirmation bias essentially looking at a list of facts and (subconsciously or not) only choosing the ones matching your agenda/opinion? How does that apply to a forum where many people post?
But "paid endorsements" is extremely paranoid and not really a thing. Whenever someone uses the word "shill" seriously in a sentence (or "paid _______" in that type of context) the extreme majority of time I immediately discredit what they have to say. If your argument is that others must be paid to defend their points because your points are so superior, you don't have an argument.
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You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

wierd

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4147 on: March 29, 2017, 02:53:10 am »

Confirmation bias: Giving greater attention or weight to a preconceived notion or opinion.

EG, "I am an EA games employee, and the latest offer from EA Games is JUST TOTALLY FUCKING AWESOME!! Here is why!!" is confirmation bias. It gives greater weight to the preconceived notion of "JUST TOTALLY FUCKING AWESOME!", and very little if any to the "yeah, these areas probably need some work, and might be negative experiences" angle.

Same with the "OMG, It is NOT EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED, THEREFORE BAD!!! I dont care what other things are neat or interesting about it, it is not what i wanted! NYAAA!"  which gives greater weight to the preconceived notion of "Not my expectation, therefore bad!", and little if any on how it might be good.

Those are confirmation bias. Straight up.

And paid reviews being paranoia?
Really? You think so?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 02:56:20 am by wierd »
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Krevsin

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4148 on: March 29, 2017, 03:13:09 am »

I like Minecraft, I just don't think it's a particularly well designed game. The "gamey" systems in place are lean to say the least and there's no real incentive or hook provided to you to engage with it apart from your own creativity. To quote Yahtzee's review, it's the type of game where you really do need to set yourself a project.

I don't get it. There's no incentive or hook to engage with Minecraft besides the entire point of Minecraft?

For my part, I already think enough tedious "gamey" shit has been added to the game. I hate grinding for experience levels and sitting at an enchantment table for ages because some of the newer cosmetic blocks (especially in the End) are stupidly hard to get. I hate having to track down monsters and use valuable crafting materials on potions. I hate maintenance work like fixing tools and wasting rare materials on shit that I need to survive the clunky, tedious combat that fans kept demanding be the focus of the game.

The game that I bought was a building sandbox with a handful of obstacles to shake things up once in a while. I didn't want Minecraft with a mediocre RPG mod, but that's what the official version of Minecraft is now. I play vanilla because all the major mods keep adding shit from other genres that I do not want to play. If I wanted to play those then I would have bought those games. I don't, I want more cosmetic blocks and decorations and doodads for my castles and houses and farms.
The problem is more that Minecraft relies on external factors (i.e. the player's own inspiration and creativity) to be engaging. A good sandbox game is more self-contained, relying on things like quests, a plot or even just giving you a goal (make the best castle) to engage the player into playing the game.

That's also what I mean by game elements and why the ones present in Minecraft are barebones. They feel very much tacked on, with no reason to be there except to be there. You gain levels to enchant items so you can dig more, but there's no in-game reason for you to dig more (external stimuli a-la "I want to build a giant golden statue of Stephen Colbert" don't count as being in-game reasons) with no clear in-game point to it.

Note that while this makes for bad game design, it has absolutely bugger-all to do with Minecraft's quality as a tool for creative expression. Minecraft offers you no incentive to play it (there's no story to follow and the highest tiers of the progression systemcan be achieved within basically an hour or two of play), relying instead on your own desire to create. It's like a 3D blocky version of a sketchbook and a set of coloured pencils.

Once again, I'm not saying Minecraft is a bad game, merely a badly designed one that works extremely well as a way for creative expression.

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Chiefwaffles

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4149 on: March 29, 2017, 03:19:46 am »

And paid reviews being paranoia?
Really? You think so?
Oh yes, I "think" so.
Though I was assuming you were talking about the smaller reviews - those made by players on steam and forums and the like. I don't really care about professional reviews much and think others should do the same, really. Find a reviewer that you both trust and agree with in terms of perspective on games, and make their reviews just another (minor even) factor in your purchasing decisions.
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Quote from: RAM
You should really look to the wilderness for your stealth ideas, it has been doing it much longer than you have after all. Take squids for example, that ink trick works pretty well, and in water too! So you just sneak into the dam upsteam, dump several megatons of distressed squid into it, then break the dam. Boom, you suddenly have enough water-proof stealth for a whole city!

FakerFangirl

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4150 on: March 29, 2017, 03:33:39 am »

That luck-based games like Hearthstone are more popular than tactical trading card games like The Far Wilds.
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wierd

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4151 on: March 29, 2017, 03:36:31 am »

I tend to ignore them totally, because the potential for quid pro quo for reviews of that type is just too high.

Instead, I will wait about a week or two after release of a title, then I will read the chatter of people playing it. People complaining loudly about a bad mechanic will get a chorus behind them quickly if the complaint is genuine, etc.

Take such reports and complaints with grains of salt though, as I suggested. Axe grinding is totally a thing, and buyer's remorse can add to that, leading to a sense of betrayal, and a desire for retribution on some level, leading the poster to make needlessly malign statements about the title. More moderate posters will admit to failings, but will detract from the "sky is falling"/"Fuck those bastards, they robbed me" rhetoric, pointing out any highlights that might exist for the title.

After reading through several such impromptu discussions about the title, I will THEN make a more informed decision on whether or not to purchase.

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itisnotlogical

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4152 on: March 29, 2017, 03:53:51 am »

The problem is more that Minecraft relies on external factors (i.e. the player's own inspiration and creativity) to be engaging. A good sandbox game is more self-contained, relying on things like quests, a plot or even just giving you a goal (make the best castle) to engage the player into playing the game.

I still don't understand. Somebody doesn't want to play a game about creative expression, therefore... Minecraft should make itself more of something that it's not (or at least wasn't) trying to be, in order to be a better-designed game? In the earliest versions that had any sort of physical danger, the gameplay loop was set up:

I want to build something in this game about building.
There are obstacles such as monsters, lava, fall damage, etc.
I overcome those challenges by building swords, a home, vehicles, and other aids.
My reward is that I can build better tools, cooler structures, acquire more food, etc.
I want to build something more ambitious now that I have the means. Return to top of list.

What if somebody doesn't want to shoot demons in DOOM? Or get loot in Diablo? Is DOOM or Diablo badly designed because they rely on somebody to be interested in their respective genres and the kinds of things you can do in those games?
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Krevsin

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4153 on: March 29, 2017, 06:09:28 am »

The problem is more that Minecraft relies on external factors (i.e. the player's own inspiration and creativity) to be engaging. A good sandbox game is more self-contained, relying on things like quests, a plot or even just giving you a goal (make the best castle) to engage the player into playing the game.

I still don't understand. Somebody doesn't want to play a game about creative expression, therefore... Minecraft should make itself more of something that it's not (or at least wasn't) trying to be, in order to be a better-designed game? In the earliest versions that had any sort of physical danger, the gameplay loop was set up:

I want to build something in this game about building.
There are obstacles such as monsters, lava, fall damage, etc.
I overcome those challenges by building swords, a home, vehicles, and other aids.
My reward is that I can build better tools, cooler structures, acquire more food, etc.
I want to build something more ambitious now that I have the means. Return to top of list.

What if somebody doesn't want to shoot demons in DOOM? Or get loot in Diablo? Is DOOM or Diablo badly designed because they rely on somebody to be interested in their respective genres and the kinds of things you can do in those games?
A person wants to play a game about creative expression and they get Minecraft. They do not care that Minecraft, when examined on a more thorough level is not a particularily well designed game.

Similarily, when someone wants to play a game about shooting demons, they get DOOM and don't care that the overarching plot of DOOM is not particularily good (even though it's conveyed to you in a very charismatic way). If a person gets DOOM because they expect a gripping, well-written narrative they will be disappointed.

A person who wants to express themselves creatively will enjoy Minecraft immensely for those elements and ignore the fact that the other systems in place are lacking.

I am not dissing people who like Minecraft, I am not saying it's a bad game for not catering to the people who don't want to engage with it on a more mechanical level, I am merely saying that Minecraft, when examined thoroughly is not a well designed game despite its strengths as a form of creative expression. Mostly because on a purely game design basis it relies on external motivation rather than providing motivation itself.

I'm not saying it's a bad game, I'm not saying it's not a game, I'm saying that when examined critically on a thorough level, it's not a particularily well-designed game because it relies on the player bringing their own motivation to it instead of motivating the player of its own accord (and also some other things but more on those later). Which is just basic entertainment-making 101, provide a hook for the person interacting with the entertainment. If you do not, that doesn't immediately mean that the piece of entertainment you've made is bad, merely that it doesn't have a hook which is one of those basic design things you get taught right at the very start of learning such things. Not having a hook is bad game design/writing/filming/whatever but it is not a crippling blow to the entirety of the work.

To reiterate, Minecraft is not a bad game nor is it not a game. It merely has the flaw of not providing any "hook" to the player and instead relies on the player having external motivation which is fine from a consumer standpoint, but when looking at it from the standpoint of critique or game design is bad practice.

To give a brief rundown of other game design issue Minecraft has:

The systems in place are shallow with 4 tiers of material upgrades for tools, 3 for armor, of which the worst tier (leather) is arguably harder to get than the middle tier (iron) and you can bottom out the upgrade tree within an hour or two of play. The enchanting system is based on forcing the player to interact with arguably the worst aspect of Minecraft (combat for maximum efficacy even though mining certain ores can give you XP as well) for relatively little gain when compared to the annoyance of having to grind for all that XP or the annoyance of losing half of it after accidental deaths (which are very common).

All of the "gamey" stuff that you decried for being annoying isn't annoying just because it's "gamey" stuff, it's annoying because it's poorly implemented. To break down one example: weapon and tool degradation does exactly what it's supposed to do, use up stockpiled resources and make you dig for more but ultimately ends up as more of an annoyance than a compelling mechanic. It is there to provide a slow drain on your resources in an attempt to make you divert some of your resources to tools which is immediately undermined by the fact that the resources are functionally unlimited which means that a pickaxe breaking is merely annoying instead of being relevant or meaningful. Without pulling immense amounts of bullshit (or as in mods, nested recipes), it's quite hard to make material drain meaningful or important precisely because the world is functionally infinite and as such, resources are everywhere. As such you have a poor implementation (weapon/tool degradation) of a good game idea (scarcity and resource drain) mostly by virtue of the very nature of the game (procedurally generated infinite world means scarcity cannot be an issue without further gating of resources).

Minecraft is full of these neat ideas implemented poorly and the only one I can think of that works well is alchemy and even that's got the problem that once you're over the initial hurdle of getting to the nether and getting netherwort and a blaze rod, it's very easy to bottom out the progression chain. like with tool and armor progression and enchanting, it's very shallow.

So Minecraft has all these design problems from a game design point of view apart from not providing a hook to the player. But the thing is it still works and is still a good game (albeit a poorly designed one) because to most people, those issues are not relevant since Minecraft's strong side, the creative expression it allows the player is incredibly strong and carries the game through those design problems.

To reiterate again, Minecraft is not a bad game. It's a poorly designed one when looked at from a game design viewpoint, but just because a game has bad game design does not mean it's automatically bad or that people who like it are stupid dumb dumbs for liking it. A game can be bad in some areas but be carried by other areas so well that it still ends up being good overall and that does not automatically mean that the bad areas aren't relevant to critical discussion of the game or that they aren't there or unimportant because the good things a game does are so good. Minecraft is a good game in spite of the game design issues it has.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4154 on: March 29, 2017, 07:44:07 pm »

That was very TL;dr.

Friendly advice: If you learned to write posts from bullshitting minimum-length-papers, my advice is to break that habit and learn to get your points across concisely. You can't convince anyone of anything if they won't read what you write.
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