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[WillowLuman]

[BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HOOF_TISSUE_KPT] did not work, so I tried [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE] in varying places around the file, to the same result. I left it there and decided to ask here.

LIFT_GAS isn't working either, you'll note. I want to find the root of this problem, because not being able to specify tissues in b_detail_plan files is a huge problem.

[StLeibowitz]

4. StL's suggestion about adding [SPECIAL] to alchemy materials (I assume he will post more detail)

Well, the more detail is this: the incenses are made in a stable state. The burning reactions take the stable state (and a pipe) and output a "volatile" boulder of that incense, which has the syndrome attached, and explosively boils at a low temperature thanks to shenanigans with the MAT_FIXED_TEMP token and boiling point. I forgot to attach the [SPECIAL] token to that volatile material...which means caravans could theoretically bring boulders that explosively boil on arrival, gassing themselves with all sorts of lovely syndromes. That fixed temperature to make the volatile materials boil may have been the cause for the sudden forest fire that was experienced in the current play turn.


@HugoLuman: did you add the hoof material to the creature? Using the tissue template in the creature raws does not obviate the need for the material the template calls for.

[WillowLuman]

Kopout's hoof tissue uses the Keratin material included in Halfling's core materials bdp

And bear in mind it's not just hooves, it's the LIFT_GAS as well. Any non HLG tissue added by kopout's bdp's

[StLeibowitz]

Hmph. I am puzzled, then. It's probably a minor typo in the middle of a word somewhere, or a missing header on kopout's tissue template file, or something ridiculous like that, if my experience is anything to go by.

[WillowLuman]

Ah, there we go. The tissue template file was missing the header.

[TheClam]

Sorry if I'm distracting from what you're talking about, but have you decided what's going to replace the adamantine yet? Because if not I think I may have an idea.

[Halfling]

Obviously you are not unable to define b_detail_plans, else all our creatures would stop working...

Hmph. I am puzzled, then. It's probably a minor typo in the middle of a word somewhere, or a missing header on kopout's tissue template file, or something ridiculous like that, if my experience is anything to go by.

Precisely. On closer inspection tissue_template_kopout does not read [OBJECT:TISSUE_TEMPLATE] before defining any tissues. Said tissue templates therefore are not recognized. Fix that and set the body part of the creature to the more normal

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

   [BODY:CORE_HLG:GAS_BAG_KPT:UNGULATE_FORELIMBS_KPT:UNGULATE_HINDLIMBS_KPT:EXTERNAL_EARS_HLG:TEETH_HLG:TAIL_HLG]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:CORE_MATERIALS_HLG]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BLIMP_MATERIALS_KPT]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:CORE_TISSUES_HLG]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BLIMP_TISSUES_KPT]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HOOF_TISSUE_KPT]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:CORE_LAYERS_HLG]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BLIMP_LAYERS_KPT]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:TEETH_HLG]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:UNGULATE_LEGS_LAYERS_KPT]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:EXTERNAL_EARS_LAYERS_HLG]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:TAIL_LAYERS_HLG]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HAIR_HLG]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HAIR_ALL_OVER_HLG]

and it gives no errors.

-- edit: you caught it in time, as I was typing

Sorry if I'm distracting from what you're talking about, but have you decided what's going to replace the adamantine yet? Because if not I think I may have an idea.

No. I did suggest this but it didn't catch on. What's your idea?

[kopout]

Ah, there we go. The tissue template file was missing the header.

head desk. I can't belive I mised that.

[StLeibowitz]

We should make the adamantine stuff fantasically, obscenely amazing for weapons, ridiculously valuable, absurdly dense, and completely undiggable.

According to the slade article on the wiki, there are in fact methods for digging the undiggable. This would make getting to Hell a feat of engineering, and extremely worth the possibility of shadows being able to escape. Armok kind of slacked on his methods of containing the beasts of hell (copper picks are all that's needed? Really?); I think the GOD Committee can do better.

[Halfling]

Mm... generally when you are unable to do something by the normal workflow (materials and templates -> plans -> creatures) then the smarter thing to do is probably look for an error somewhere in the previous step rather than try to come up with hacks to make it work regardless e.g. start defining tissues inside creatures, because we do know the "normal" way works if everything goes correctly.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

/fbsd forums

Not that you aren't allowed to do it some other way, it just may be easier

[TheClam]

Sorry if I'm distracting from what you're talking about, but have you decided what's going to replace the adamantine yet? Because if not I think I may have an idea.

No. I did suggest this but it didn't catch on. What's your idea?

I was just thinking that rather than making it another relatively generic "this metal has really good material attributes" version of adamantine, it would be nice to have an incentive to breach hell for some other reason (particularly since, let's be honest, there are probably going to be several supermetals in this mod by the time you're done). One idea I was having was that rather than the boulders dropped being workable into a metal, instead you could put in a reaction to convert the boulders into artifacts. I don't know how possible that is, but it seems like it should be so long as there is a way to control the quality of a product from a reaction. This property would be sufficiently unique to encourage breaching hell, particularly if there were some way to control which artifact you got back. I know that I, for one, would be pretty tempted by the lure of indestructible doors, unjammable mechanisms, full suits of artifact armor etc. But, as I say it's just an idea, you're running the show and should take it where you want. If you do like it, I'll start trying to find out if it's even possible. I'm not sure, but I think some of the reactions in Masterwork do something similar?

EDIT: Of course, that being said, I do also like Leibowitz's idea of making it entirely undiggable, just to make hell a bragging-rights reward as well as providing some utility. And I agree, what on earth was Armok thinking when he gave his uber-metal a weakness to copper? The only problem is that, so far as I know, the methods you're thinking of only work from the bottom up without some rather funky glitching. If we made the adamantine undiggable, then we'd have to go through SMR in order to get at the stuff (not that that's impossible at the moment)

[Halfling]

We should make the adamantine stuff fantasically, obscenely amazing for weapons, ridiculously valuable, absurdly dense, and completely undiggable.

According to the slade article on the wiki, there are in fact methods for digging the undiggable. This would make getting to Hell a feat of engineering, and extremely worth the possibility of shadows being able to escape. Armok kind of slacked on his methods of containing the beasts of hell (copper picks are all that's needed? Really?); I think the GOD Committee can do better.

But can you actually mine it in such a way as to make your way through it reliably? I don't understand it well enough, honestly. So I'm actually going to -1 that one unless it's guaranteed to work if done right (the difficulty doesn't matter), going to be super annoying to just be locked out of the "final boss" battle.

How about the more conservative solution: just digging that stone releases gas that turns the miner into a demon host that breaks into separate body parts that are then animated as demons and assault the fortress, leaving behind demon materials that can be forged into obscenely good items that are always on fire and hence only last for some months unless they are artifacts.

[Halfling]

I was just thinking that rather than making it another relatively generic "this metal has really good material attributes" version of adamantine, it would be nice to have an incentive to breach hell for some other reason (particularly since, let's be honest, there are probably going to be several supermetals in this mod by the time you're done). One idea I was having was that rather than the boulders dropped being workable into a metal, instead you could put in a reaction to convert the boulders into artifacts. I don't know how possible that is, but it seems like it should be so long as there is a way to control the quality of a product from a reaction. This property would be sufficiently unique to encourage breaching hell, particularly if there were some way to control which artifact you got back. I know that I, for one, would be pretty tempted by the lure of indestructible doors, unjammable mechanisms, full suits of artifact armor etc. But, as I say it's just an idea, you're running the show and should take it where you want. If you do like it, I'll start trying to find out if it's even possible. I'm not sure, but I think some of the reactions in Masterwork do something similar?

Can't make a reaction make artifacts. With dfhack I'm sure it would be possible, but do we want to include that as the component? We may, it does improve the experience with all the bugfixes and so.

The "vanilla" way of doing such would be with syndromes, reactions and interactions. Some possibilities would be creating a set of "reward" items making which requires this material (such as a sword with contact area 1 and speed 9001, armor which covers everything possible and can be worn on top of anything, super-shield, incredibly valuable doodad, "purity seal" which sets paladinism fort-wide via a syndrome-interaction-combo or "cursed seal" which sets vampirism fort-wide similarly), setting a creature's attributes to something very desirable (4x creativity? Speed 1?) temporarily or permanently, body transformation... it can also be applied to other creatures by interactions (mining it increases your fort population's creativity by 10% for every stone mined).

I'm sure that if we agree it can have some great reward then you can come up with lots

[StLeibowitz]

But can you actually mine it in such a way as to make your way through it reliably? I don't understand it well enough, honestly. So I'm actually going to -1 that one unless it's guaranteed to work if done right (the difficulty doesn't matter), going to be super annoying to just be locked out of the "final boss" battle.

How about the more conservative solution: just digging that stone releases gas that turns the miner into a demon host that breaks into separate body parts that are then animated as demons and assault the fortress, leaving behind demon materials that can be forged into obscenely good items that are always on fire and hence only last for some months unless they are artifacts.

Since spires to hell are hollow, aiming some kind of cave-in device at the top of a spire would break through, wouldn't it? If not, a brute force method of carving a new entrance to hell might be possible, though I've never tried that...ever.

And if my memory serves me well, spires have odd projections off the side, don't they? To chip off a chunk of one, you could erect some kind of scaffolding beneath it and carve upwards.

Also, we have no randomly generated creatures, so the "boss battle" of the clown car isn't a factor. The shadows are more properly Doomsday-bringers - plaguelike spreading through clawing attacks, nigh-indestructible without Celestium or supermetals - which is why they cannot fly.

Finally, after my Blazewood, I somehow doubt flaming items will be looked upon well by the halflings

[TheClam]

Can't make a reaction make artifacts.

Well, blast. Still, the solution you suggested sounds like a good workaround. I was just thinking that having the material make items that were inherently superior to other items in terms of utility beyond "good at killing stuff" was a more interesting alternative to just having hax-stats, it doesn't really matter how we implement that, if we even decide to implement it at all. As for making the 'adamantine' undiggable... while it is ultimately up to you guys, I'm inclined to side with Halfling on this one. It would be a cool idea for a regular rock, like the jaded slade you have at the moment, but I don't think that digging down through undiggable rock works. Probably a different kind of threat needs to be suggested to keep people away from the 'adamantine'.