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Author Topic: dodging research  (Read 5190 times)

dwindlehop

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dodging research
« on: July 24, 2013, 05:32:59 pm »

I want to isolate the attributes that are used in dodging.

HYPOTHESIS
The attributes that are trained by practicing Dodging (Agility, Toughness, Endurance, Willpower, Spatial Sense, Kinesthetic Sense) are the attributes that contribute to success in dodging.

METHOD
The Object Testing Arena does not appear to allow you to modify attributes, so I elected to do the following:
1. Generate a pocket world with exactly one type of bogeyman so as to reduce randomness in my foe.
2. Create a Human Hero Adventurer with Average attributes except for one Superior Attribute and dump the Skill points into Dodging solely.
3. I slept all day (to avoid Drowsy) and then waited all night for bogeyman attacks. If nobody attacked before my Hunger/Thirst became two levels deep (about 16-ish hours?) then I simply restarted.
4. I moved to let approximately one bogeyman attack me per round. I did not attack, to conserve energy.
5. I ended the test when a speed-affecting status ailment occurred (nausea, stunned, winded, etc.).*
* I had to modify this approach when I realized that superior Toughness or Willpower will mean you can be so hurt as to be no longer dodging effectively but still at normal speed. I wound up trying to get about 50-100 attempted attacks in per test. Interestingly, with a superior Toughness or Willpower you can endure about 4 times as many attempted attacks from a bogeyman than otherwise.
6. I then parse the gamelog using a previously posted !!science!! perl script, modified for my purposes.

RESULTS
The Strength results were my control. With my methodology, there is some noise in the data. I do not have hundreds of blows, I do sometimes get bounced from one bogeyman to another, and there's normal human variation in my attributes.

The hit rate of the initial bogeyman test was (1.0 = every blow lands):

Strength.77
Agility.58
Toughness.84
Endurance.75
Willpower.50
Spatial Sense.81
Kinesthetic Sense.76

I then attempted to do some testing based on Human Hero Adventurers with below average attributes in order to get multiple Superior attributes. I quickly discovered, though, that a low Intuition and Focus will cause severe impairment in your ability to dodge (you live such a short time that I have no decent data). I believe this is a function of rolls modified by the Observer skill made to detect incoming blows.

Further experiments with Human Demigod Adventurers showed that adding significant levels of Intuition & Focus attributes did not materially affect the dodging outcomes (.60 hit rate). However, increasing Observer skill a great deal did have some modest effect on dodging outcome (.38 hit rate with Superior Willpower, Focus, and Intuition).

Skill level in dodging remains the single largest effect on dodging chance, of course.

CONCLUSION
Willpower and Agility are the key attributes for making successful dodge rolls. Other attributes don't materially improve the odds (at least in isolation, the only thing I am attempting to study), but subpar Intuition and Focus attributes will definitely harm your dodge rolls. Other subpar attributes may harm your dodge rolls, as well.

NEXT STEPS
It's probably smarter to mod the raw files to mutate the Average Human Male and pit him against a sufficiently skilled dwarf to test attributes. The results would be far more repeatable and it would be less effort to generate more depth of data.

I am now curious how much Observer/Focus & Intuition & Spatial Sense is required to dodge multiple incoming projectiles. I am very likely to test this.

I am also curious how body size, length, and broadness affect the dodging chance. My limited tests seem to show that Adventurers have a 1/36 chance of being extra fast (super thin and short) which may have some impact on miss chance. I'm not sure if I care or not. It is sufficient for my purposes to know that the elven agility boost is important when attempting to dodge.

I think there is also some wound severity stuff going on here. My highly skilled Observer test did not incur any medium/heavy wounds. I may attempt to decipher this.

I feel like there might be some difference between moving and waiting, but as one is generally never waiting for an incoming blow in .34 I don't think I care.

There is probably a minimum set of attributes which must be at least average to successfully dodge a few dozen blows in a single fight. I don't think I care.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 05:35:57 pm by dwindlehop »
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branmuffincat

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 09:48:45 pm »

this math was to intense for me to handle I cried a little
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laularukyrumo

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2013, 01:41:33 am »

This is extremely valuable Science. I was under the impression that Intuition and Focus were useless outside of archery roles and potentially affecting Observation roles, and now that I know otherwise, I will be leaving those stats alone during character creation.
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Matoro

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2013, 02:09:32 am »

All those attributes people never use seem to be more imporant than they are thought to be. For example, Intuition. It's one of those attributes many people just dump out in favor of physical attributes. No wonder why there is a people who claim the adventure mode too hard after trying to maximize "useful" attributes by setting all mental attributes to zero.
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dwindlehop

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2013, 12:23:36 pm »

* dwindlehop blows on the tea to cool it off.

Thanks.

So, after a considerable amount of dicking around in arena mode, I have no new data.

Issues:
It's actually a bit tricky to set up relative skill levels such that you get a nice strong correlation with the attribute changes. It's very easy to set up a duel in which 90+% of attacks are dodged, and attribute changes only change the outcome +/-1%. Patient twiddling can get you past that. Then you need to deal with counter strikes, which are really annoying.
Then you need to deal with charging. Dwarves can easily knock down humans. Dodging chance on the ground does seem to be reduced. One nice thing about bogeyman fights is they never end with the human on the ground. The ideal opponent would neither successfully charge nor be charged.
You also need to deal the appropriate amount of damage with a single strike. The bogeyman fists are just the right amount of damage. Any kind of weapon is rather too much damage, even training weapons (striking a nude human).
All this is to say Tarn has done a wonderful job making bogeyman a well-balanced challenge.

So, perhaps with the learning I have done I can finally get some arena matches set up to successfully capture the effect I am trying to study. However, on further reflection I think maybe that's not the right path. Maybe I should redo my original experiment, but with modded attributes to be no variation 1000 or 2000. I seek wisdom from the community. Thoughts?
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Crabs

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2013, 12:44:56 pm »

Very well done, dwindlehop! My character will be grateful next time the sun sets.
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coldmonkey

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2013, 10:41:27 am »

I'm just gonna bump this so that it's not completely forgotten. This is very useful data for anyone who goes after the wiki description of what stats are useful or not.
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I found a human city named Sleevevirgins. It was easily the biggest city in the world, so clearly I wasn't the first person to come inside the city's walls.

doomyoshi

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2013, 12:22:32 pm »

knowing this is going to make my 1050 year tower runs actually doable i hope; how do you work out focus?
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coldmonkey

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2013, 01:15:58 pm »

how do you work out focus?
One way is to dick around in pyramids in order to discover traps. Each trap spotted improves Observer and Focus, if I remember correctly.
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I found a human city named Sleevevirgins. It was easily the biggest city in the world, so clearly I wasn't the first person to come inside the city's walls.

mastahcheese

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2013, 12:37:54 am »

This is absolutely amazing work.
Pure brilliance.

how do you work out focus?
One way is to dick around in pyramids in order to discover traps. Each trap spotted improves Observer and Focus, if I remember correctly.
But keep in mind that if you stumble upon the mummy, their curse will ruin you for life.
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smjjames

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2013, 12:55:37 am »

This is absolutely amazing work.
Pure brilliance.

how do you work out focus?
One way is to dick around in pyramids in order to discover traps. Each trap spotted improves Observer and Focus, if I remember correctly.
But keep in mind that if you stumble upon the mummy, their curse will ruin you for life.

It helps if you grab as many companions as you can and hide while it uses the curse on one of them. Mummys can only use the curse thing once, right?
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coldmonkey

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2013, 08:42:43 am »

This is absolutely amazing work.
Pure brilliance.

how do you work out focus?
One way is to dick around in pyramids in order to discover traps. Each trap spotted improves Observer and Focus, if I remember correctly.
But keep in mind that if you stumble upon the mummy, their curse will ruin you for life.
If you pick the lock and then make sure not to touch anything, the mummy won't awaken.
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I found a human city named Sleevevirgins. It was easily the biggest city in the world, so clearly I wasn't the first person to come inside the city's walls.

AJC

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2013, 07:12:21 pm »

if your sneaking skills are high enough you can grab loot and still not disturb the mummy after picking the lock bashing the door down seems to always get it mad.
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duckman

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Re: dodging research
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 08:33:02 pm »

I can say that picking the lock does not guarantee that you won't wake the mummy. High sneaking skill will keep the mummy from seeing you though, so you might be able to behead it once you steal its hat.
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