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Author Topic: Impulse Elevators - What I've learned and requesting advice/confirmation testing  (Read 13204 times)

Ravendarksky

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I don't know if it's relevant or helpful but I just used the design on the wiki (requires a 5x5 space) and it has worked perfectly for me over 70 z levels.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Minecart#Impulse_ramps
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WanderingKid

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I'd personally call that 3x3 but I suppose it's how you look at it.  In my multiple tests I always had problems with it after 10 zs due to speed gain. I just couldn't get it to behave without crashing into v walls, slowing the system,  and creating a map with the carts. Maybe it's just me but if you look at my images above and can see any flaws I'd be interested.

Ravendarksky

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If you post a save with that design in it I will happily take a look :-)
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WanderingKid

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I play pretty strictly in iron man mode.  Sorry, but I don't have the 100z elevator as per the wiki still built, I've modified it to my tested design from the minecart research center.  I didn't modify the wiki because I want to prove it across multiple forts first, but as far as my rather limited research can tell it fails after 10 Zs.  If you'd like a copy of the current fort with my version of the impulse elevator constructed and working, I'll be happy to provide it via DFFD.

Ravendarksky

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I made a new fort tonight and did a impulse ramp over 150 levels. Works perfectly.... I've made a save to show you. http://www.filedropper.com/region3

Just load it up and hit F7. You will need to change to F8 when the carts bump into each other. (this is avoidable by building a longer set of rollers through the magma but I was getting lazy and it's late.)

It seems to matter that it goes in a spiral, if you make it try alternate banking left instead of continually going right it slows down.
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WanderingKid

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Cool, I appreciate that Raven.  I'll download it tonight and check it out in the morning.  Maybe we can figure out why the original impulse just didn't want to work on my system.  Maybe it's that fort, not sure yet.  I can always try carving out another test run.

What do you mean by alternating?  Just to be clear, the spiral in question was built always turning in a spiral upwards to the left, but I'd point the Impulse Ramp piece towards the outside of the spiral so I could make safety shunts, similar to the wiki's direction.  Do you face all your impulse ramps inward?

Ravendarksky

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I noticed that at the top of my ramp the minecarts seem to slow.... Prior to that point they are ascending in a clockwise spiral (Always turning right). At the top they turn left..... Could be a red herring though. Take a look yourself and see what you think :)
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WanderingKid

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Edit 2: Ignore this post, PEBCAK issue with my file unzipper.

WanderingKid

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I noticed that at the top of my ramp the minecarts seem to slow.... Prior to that point they are ascending in a clockwise spiral (Always turning right). At the top they turn left..... Could be a red herring though. Take a look yourself and see what you think :)

Your carts are derailing.  Watch it with period (one tic while paused).  You'll go up five (occassionally 6) flights 1 box/tic, and then you'll hit an upwards turn that you sit on for 8-10 tics.  It will roll back to the impulse ramp, smack the wall and roll back to the upwards curving ramp in about 9 tics afterwards.  It will then proceed again at 1 square/tic until it does it again.

This is fine for a single cart track where you won't have traffic jams.  The version above that modifies the layout slightly listed above does not derail however, ever.  It is also slightly faster.  It will take 3-4 tics on the impulse ramp, and 1 tic for the other 3.  So each half loop takes roughly 7 tics, for 14 tics/4zs.  Yours will take 8 tics/4zs, then will spend 18-20 tics on the next level up (5z), where the modified method will only spend another 7 and be 6 zs up.

If you want to prove this to yourself in another way, create a safety shunt 1z up from each of the impulse ramps leading into the turning ramp.  You'll find your carts are stuck in the shunts because eventually you derail, roll back, and go up into the shunt.  It's not 100% guaranteed to happen every time but eventually it will due to inconsistent physics of track start location when crossing ramps.

EDIT: I should say, however, that you're correct in one item.  You're not ending up in a dangerous rocking horse situation like my carts were eventually.  I wonder if that has something to do with wooden vs. metal minecarts, as yours have to be magma proof, but I can't see how.

donpost

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STUPID QUESTION(S) INCOMING!!!!

Are the 3x3 elevator designs on the wiki and WanderingKid's one in here two-way - i.e. will they allow carts to go down as well as up? I suspect not but I'm new to minecarts.

If I do need to build a seperate 3x3 shaft with a spiral track leading downwards, will I need to put in high friction track stops every few floors to limit speed or just one at the bottom where the minecart exits the shaft?

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fricy

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STUPID QUESTION(S) INCOMING!!!!
Are the 3x3 elevator designs on the wiki and WanderingKid's one in here two-way - i.e. will they allow carts to go down as well as up? I suspect not but I'm new to minecarts.
If I do need to build a seperate 3x3 shaft with a spiral track leading downwards, will I need to put in high friction track stops every few floors to limit speed or just one at the bottom where the minecart exits the shaft?

When you set your routes 'guided' I believe you can use them both ways, but that defeats the purpose of this design. For automatic operation you need a double helix design.

If you want to send stuff downward you need to regulate the spiral: last time I calculated such a design it needed about 50k entry speed - highest roller, then one high friction stop on every level on the tile after the ramp. That yielded about 40-60k speed in the helix. If you don't regulate the downward spiral your cart will derail when it tries to enter a downramp above 50k speed, and it will spill it contents. Better option would be a drop chute - as WanderingKid says too.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:27:06 pm by fricy »
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WanderingKid

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Neither design using impulse ramps will allow for unguided delivery of the carts, unfortunately.  If you set them to guide, like Fricy mentioned above, they actually become carried after the first impulse ramp and your unguided carts may take out the guides if they use the ramp.  I don't recommend doing that.

Personally, I'd recommend just using a drop chute to get the cart down to the level you want to be at.  Hit the second link in my signature and it'll walk you through a major cart process I built out that moves ore at incredibly high rates of speed.
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