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Author Topic: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power  (Read 29450 times)

Andrakon

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 10:47:52 pm »

I have been working on a similar project for a couple days but gave up after only limited success. Maybe it is something you could try if your interested. I was trying to build a minecart system to move magma to the surface that did not need any power. The troubles I had were if I tried to move a minecart through just one square of magma the cart would not fill. The cart may have been moving too fast though. And if you move it through two squares of magma the cart got stuck in the second square. It could be bumped out with another cart however. So I did get it to work but after a few minutes of operation the carts got jammed up and it stopped. I ended up converting it to a powered system because 5 in game years is too long to wait for magma furnaces.

Couple things I found out during testing: High Speed can be reduced easily by dropping it down another 2z lvl drop shoot. Dropping carts down up/down stairs works but you have to start the drop from a floorless square with no stairs in it. I felt like experimenting with a compact design and was able to get the impulse elevator and drop shoot to fit within a 3x3 for most of the journey. Dropping a bridge on an impulse ramp at any zlvl is a very good way to divert the minecarts out of the system if your "launching bay" is not at the top of your build (but now that I am thinking about it, is it possible to extend a bridge into the drop shoot and not slow the carts down to a halt? That way I could get empty carts). 
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WanderingKid

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2013, 02:39:00 pm »

I have been working on a similar project for a couple days but gave up after only limited success. Maybe it is something you could try if your interested. I was trying to build a minecart system to move magma to the surface that did not need any power. The troubles I had were if I tried to move a minecart through just one square of magma the cart would not fill. The cart may have been moving too fast though. And if you move it through two squares of magma the cart got stuck in the second square.
I have found the same.  I've seen some discussion of different techniques used to powerlessly get carts out of the system, but I've found that while they work originally, once flow begins in the fill chute I get inconsistent ability to pull carts out of the process.

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It could be bumped out with another cart however. So I did get it to work but after a few minutes of operation the carts got jammed up and it stopped. I ended up converting it to a powered system because 5 in game years is too long to wait for magma furnaces.
Powered seems to be the most effective system for making sure you can retrieve carts.  I've debated on a method using magma flow -> Grate -> cart bump -> impulse ramp but the design of it was overkill and still not as consistent as I prefer.

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I felt like experimenting with a compact design and was able to get the impulse elevator and drop shoot to fit within a 3x3 for most of the journey. Dropping a bridge on an impulse ramp at any zlvl is a very good way to divert the minecarts out of the system if your "launching bay" is not at the top of your build (but now that I am thinking about it, is it possible to extend a bridge into the drop shoot and not slow the carts down to a halt? That way I could get empty carts).

A bridge in the drop chute won't be useful, the cart will stop dead on the bridge and stay there... or teleport over it, depending on drop speed.  A bridge over a corner after the catch ramp is usually your best bet.  I would recommend never opening the system up to dwarves while you have carts in motion... unless you're trying to remove some nobles from the population.  The impulse elevator does not play nicely without being a sealed system.

hermes

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 02:57:38 pm »

ptw and read again with brain engaged.
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I've been working on this type of thing...

Snaake

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2013, 12:21:14 pm »

I got a system working, which I proposed earlier, that combines the no-power-required magma trench and WanderingKid's impulse elevator version. The carts only fill with magma if the trench is at 7 units, if it's at 5-6, they often (but not alway, I think) come out empty. And they do come out with very little speed if the trench is full, but haven't had carts get stuck down there yet (I do have a pump to empty&evaporate those 4 tiles, just in case, though).

I've been meaning to do a full writeup, but I was trying to get some other rather more important (non-DF) stuff done first, and I wasn't at home the past couple of days, and stuff like that. Still going to do that writeup, but still have more important non-DF stuff I should do first :S

There's also the fact that there's still some kinks in the system, namely that steel minecarts are heavy, whether filled with magma or not, and I was hoping to have my dwarves haul them around in wheelbarrows once I get the magma to the top station of the track station, but they refuse to haul minecarts in wheelbarrows anywhere except to "place track vehicle". Or haul them to furniture-type:minecart stockpiles without wheelbarrows, either.   Don't know what's up with that. And guide orders without tracks in between end up with the carts being carried, as well. So now I'm thinking I might have to make it a multi-cart system if I want to lower the amount of micromanagement while increasing throughput, but I'd probably use something more like the delayed-firing system WanderingKid had in his single-pick challenge videos for the "torpedoes" in the minecart grinder. Minecarts on hatches on top of ramps, triggered by the previous minecart going over a pressure plate.
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WanderingKid

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 12:34:42 pm »

I got a system working, which I proposed earlier, that combines the no-power-required magma trench and WanderingKid's impulse elevator version. The carts only fill with magma if the trench is at 7 units, if it's at 5-6, they often (but not alway, I think) come out empty. And they do come out with very little speed if the trench is full, but haven't had carts get stuck down there yet (I do have a pump to empty&evaporate those 4 tiles, just in case, though).

I'd tried that technique, Snaake, and it didn't work consistently for me, and I ended up with some jams in the system.  I'd tried it in a separate fortress when I was goofing off with them.  Reverse pathing and bounce out, multi-cart pushing, etc.  I'm more than willing to try it again when you get a chance ot finish up your write up, it's possible I missed a nuance.

Snaake

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 02:00:50 pm »

Which part jammed, the impulse elevator, the filling trench, or something else?

edit: I have had some kinks myself, but so far no carts stuck in the filling trench or the impulse elevator (a couple stopped on the small piece of track between those due to low speeds on exiting the magma-filler, but I added an impulse ramp since then, and it seems ok). I do need to also do a bit more testing, which should occur if I get the higher throughput worked out somehow.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 02:02:39 pm by Snaake »
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darkrider2

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2013, 12:13:42 am »

This is genius. I don't really know what else to say, that return loop thing blew my mind.
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Snaake

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2013, 07:39:22 am »

Kept losing a cart in the trench.

If by "losing" you mean the bug where they still appear in stocks screen, then yea, that's probably because it's being pushed by fluid movement. Which really just sets an upper limit on the throughput you can have, i.e. how often a cart can go into the magma trench, since the trench needs to have time to fill before it's safe for another cart to enter. I did "lose" a couple of minecarts, because I initially tried to use nethercap ones, but while nethercap is magma-safe for pumps etc., if it's submerged in magma it gets destroyed anyhow, since only certain items like anvils and screw pumps can be magma-safe.

Btw, at least for stuff that got "lost" in my river and moat like that, marking for dumping from stocks screen allowed my dwarves to carry them out, even though they were invisible to loo(k). After the river and moat were drained, of course. Or dfhack autodump works too.
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WanderingKid

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Re: How to build a Multi-cart Ore to Magma Minecart Project without needing power
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2013, 02:25:11 pm »

Sorry, misspoke.  The carts were jamming up in the trench.  Not loss due to bug, I wouldn't blame that on design (and every design seems to get that issue).

Andrakon

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I have a prototype of a completely automatic minecart collection system. It uses a lot of hatches and latches. One latch per minecart minus 1. No need for one for the last cart. Unfortunately latches require a lot of power due to it having 2 pumps and a bunch of gear assembly's per latch. Also I tried to build to too compact and it is completely unreliable because the carts like to jump between tracks when they go over the hatches that are supposed to switch them to the next track. If I rebuild it with walls between the tracks it would work great I think. But it is super dwarfy! Very hard to build. Also I could use a part of your system I don't quite understand. Something about collecting the carts in a loop of track to make sure the gap between them is sufficiently long? :S
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WanderingKid

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Also I could use a part of your system I don't quite understand. Something about collecting the carts in a loop of track to make sure the gap between them is sufficiently long? :S

The idea, in general, is simple. You need to gap your carts by a minimum of 100 tics.  What you do is create a pressure plate to trigger to all carts, and then right in front of it channel a hole in the track and a loop to return the cart back to the route it just came in from.  Put a hatch over that hole and link it to the plate.

What happens is cart 1 and 2 are separated by, let's say, 20 tics.  The first cart hits the plate, and opens the hatch.  Said cart then dives down onto the loop track and eventually gets returned to the track to try again.  BEcause a hatch is instant to open but 100 tics to close, you'll always have at least 100 tics between your carts.

Andrakon

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Ahhh I see! For your system that would be crucial due to the inconsistent times of carts coming and going. For the magma run I made sure the carts had a well timed gap when they launched since I launch them all at once so I didn't need the loop. I finally managed to get it to work though! I've got probably 4 IRL days in this thing now lol!



An automatic and reliable cart return system that can handle up to 8 carts. It uses a lot of power though. With your loop it could be used for hauling something other than lava though. I'll go start a thread on this. :3

Thread is up! http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131686.msg4654476#msg4654476
I try my best to explain it. I'll stop derailing your thread now lol! WonderingKid, you helped me quite a bit! I came up with the idea while studying this thread! You deserve credit my friend! Take my ☼Socks☼!
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 12:37:26 am by Andrakon »
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WanderingKid

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Ahhh I see! For your system that would be crucial due to the inconsistent times of carts coming and going. For the magma run I made sure the carts had a well timed gap when they launched since I launch them all at once so I didn't need the loop. I finally managed to get it to work though! I've got probably 4 IRL days in this thing now lol!
Quite so.  Carts go in when full and a dorf pushes, not via timer, so I had to get the return section a bit more problem-proofed.

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An automatic and reliable cart return system that can handle up to 8 carts. It uses a lot of power though. With your loop it could be used for hauling something other than lava though. I'll go start a thread on this. :3
Hrm?  What do you have in mind for hauling then?  Ore goes down, Magma comes up... ;)

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I try my best to explain it. I'll stop derailing your thread now lol! WonderingKid, you helped me quite a bit! I came up with the idea while studying this thread! You deserve credit my friend! Take my ☼Socks☼!
Any thread on Bay12 that's not at least somewhat derailed (and brought back, derails... brought back... ) is a lost and lonely thread left in the barren wastelands on page 20. ;)  Besides, I like seeing what this walkthrough inspired.  Took me a bit to write it up, it's my payback when I get stuff like this.   :D

Andrakon

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Sorry, misspoke.  The carts were jamming up in the trench.  Not loss due to bug, I wouldn't blame that on design (and every design seems to get that issue).

Hmm, I have never once lost a cart to anything besides dropping a bridge on one once. But I have used pretty much the same design in my last 5 forts and something similar in my latest. All based off of this here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125679.msg4247715#msg4247715
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