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Author Topic: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened  (Read 73785 times)

WanderingKid

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #180 on: September 18, 2013, 03:33:15 am »

That's it.  Right after I finish up building out the B-52 area, I'm doing a dwarven daycare.  One of the little booze drains just decided to stand on top of a bomber hatch (which, btw, is over the magma) when mommy came by to yank the lever. 

Yes, the traffic is restricted there.  No, he didn't care.  Goodbye, Shem.  Lefty has more brains then you.  He's killed a dog hair undead creature with ONE HAND when our tanner decided to go push a cart (which isn't in his labor list) instead of tanning it.  He'd already been assaulted by a goblin head and lost his right hand.  Lefty laughs at your hot springs bath.  He's 4.  He did all that a year ago.

Lefty isn't going to live to adulthood at this rate but at least he'll die with a good story.  Shem, you were just an idiot.

... *facepalm* Little frickin' drunkards.  Shem was the oldest, too... dammit.

vanatteveldt

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #181 on: September 18, 2013, 08:26:47 am »

With some work, I think it should be possible to manage a concentric cavein using natural floors.  The idea is to leave the inner rings supported by a central pillar, and to not channel out the square that will become the floor of the bridge.  Once you drop the outer ring, you'll need to pump out the aquifer as you mine underneath the inner rings, but this should be feasible for an arbitrarily large aquifer.

However, given that you'll need all your wood for a pump, the lack of food storage gives you a hard time limit of only a couple of months, so a 3+ layer aquifer is probably out of the question just based on dig time.

EDIT2:
Oh, forgot to mention: there's flying undead to contend with during all of this.  :)

I did some quick testing in a non-terrifying biome, the cave-in method is actually quite quick, even with a non-skilled miner. You can pierce a one layer aquifer in about a month. I tried a concentric pierce without constructed 'arms' but messed up (first by digging wrong, second by killing my miner), so I would need to do more testing. I don't fully understand the need for a pump if you make tight circles and keep the miner on the inner ring but I guess I will find out in the first attempt that I don't botch. I found out. You do need a pump.

If there are 3+ dry soil layers you can do this without exposing yourself, but with only 2 thick it will require a miner on the surface for quite a while, so with flying undead it will probably not be doable. If you need to juggle around a single block for pump and wall it will be quite tedious.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:14:07 pm by vanatteveldt »
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WanderingKid

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #182 on: September 18, 2013, 11:52:22 am »

Vanat,

I personally have never really understood the concentric cave in method nor how it works, even after I read through it a few times.  If you get it figured out, would you be willing to screenshot/setup some kind of visual walkthrough?

vanatteveldt

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #183 on: September 18, 2013, 12:43:49 pm »

@WanderingKid

Sure.

I actually just managed to pierce a two-level aquifer using the concentric rings. I still messed up in various ways, leading me to rescue a stranded miner using additional logs and not leaving space for the pump so requiring an extra log for a floor... but I think I have the method figured out in a way that doesn't use more than the three original logs. I got access to the rock layer on the 15th of slate, which means I took a month and a half; but as I said I mucked about so it should be possible more quickly. I will test again to make sure the rescue operations were really due to stupidity, ie that it is possible without more than the 3 logs. If it works out I'll make a little walkthrough.
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Stochasty

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #184 on: September 18, 2013, 01:51:13 pm »

Once you drop the outer ring, how do you drain the water from the inside so you can channel out the next layer?
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vanatteveldt

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #185 on: September 18, 2013, 02:31:12 pm »

Once you drop the outer ring, how do you drain the water from the inside so you can channel out the next layer?

You need to pump it out, and you first need to channel out the whole inner portion except for two tiles support so the pump can outpump the water production.

I made a walkthrough here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131263.msg4615772#msg4615772

Unfortunately, I messed up the last step and killed the miner, but a previous run showed that after the second cave in you are good to go and can build a staircase. I don't have time now, I might edit the post with a succesful finish later.

The whole procedure took 24 days and I messed up the timing with the carpenter not being done while the miner was ready, so it can be done a bit quicker even.

Of course, there were no undead flyers on that map. That might mess up the timing a bit as well... Also, The miner is stuck channeling down at least once digging the first ring, so he won't be able to run away at that point. In other words: good luck using this procedure in a terrifying biome :-)

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Stochasty

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #186 on: September 18, 2013, 03:09:19 pm »

I don't fully understand the need for a pump if you make tight circles and keep the miner on the inner ring but I guess I will find out in the first attempt that I don't botch.

You need to pump it out, and you first need to channel out the whole inner portion except for two tiles support so the pump can outpump the water production.

Color me confused here.  The pump method I know, but I thought you were indicating that there was a way around that.  If you could drain the aquifer sans pump (somehow pierce the lower layer to let it drain downwards?) that would give a lot more leeway with regards to timing since you could use two of the wood for barrels to preserve food once you slaughter the pack beasts.  Otherwise, you end up racing to get rock pots in time for the first slaughter, and if you miss nearly all of the food goes to waste.  (This makes surviving the summer !!FUN!!.)

As far as pulling it off in a terrifying undead biome: so far, I'm about 2 for 11 on getting through the aquifer.  The first success took too long setting up a working food industry in the caverns and would have starved but for a hasty and ill-advised attempt to rescue the first migration wave which led to undead in my fortress.  The second pierce is going much better.  I'm into the second spring, and nearly have a stable fort.  Still having some food trouble (the last migration wave was larger than I had capacity to support), but I've got the metal industry going and the fortress is nearly self-sustaining.  Probably won't be able to get the next wave in, the surface is starting to get dangerous, so I'm likely sealed in for the foreseeable future.  Now its time to start worrying about socks.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 03:11:38 pm by Stochasty »
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vanatteveldt

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #187 on: September 18, 2013, 03:18:48 pm »

Sorry for the confusion. The method requires a pump since you need to channel out layer two, so you need to get the water out of layer one. When I tried the first time I was dropping the central pillar into the first level again, which does not make a lot of sense.

What I've done compared to the concentric method as I understand from the wiki is remove the requirements for extra support, etc., and minimized it to the minimal required hole, so it can be done fairly quickly. I posted the elaborate walkthrough mainly at the request of WanderingKid, even though I got my miner killed in the end but that is preventable. If your method is better or easier than what I described please tell me, this is the first time I use the cave in method but it seems pretty minimal to me.

The piercing itself should take a bit over half a month so that is fine without food, but I guess running away from the undead adds considerable time to it.
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WanderingKid

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #188 on: September 18, 2013, 04:50:09 pm »

It looks like, if you can get a place with 3 layers over the aquifer, you could have a surface roof and work at your own pace.  This would allow you to expand the process to four, five, 6... whatever rings you felt you might need.

In. Ter. Est. Ing...  Nicely done Vanat, and thank you.

Merendel

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #189 on: September 18, 2013, 05:16:00 pm »

It looks like, if you can get a place with 3 layers over the aquifer, you could have a surface roof and work at your own pace.  This would allow you to expand the process to four, five, 6... whatever rings you felt you might need.

In. Ter. Est. Ing...  Nicely done Vanat, and thank you.
I dont think I've ever seen more than a few small patches of 3 layers over a flat embark aquifer and that was due to biom stradeling.
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Patchy

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #190 on: September 18, 2013, 07:05:22 pm »

If you got 3 layers over an aquifier, then you have only 1 soil lvl of aquifer and possibly a stone layer aquifer. But if you use the method described in my previous post, you can determine the existance of a stone layer aquifier without ever having to touch df-hack or having one of your dwarves touch a pick.
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Merendel

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #191 on: September 18, 2013, 11:18:44 pm »

Good news I built on Van's concept and got it down to not needing a pump, only needs a bucket and 1 log you can recover later to build a single downstair.  you can also do all the work from underground as well without exposing a walkable path to the outside.  You still have the flyer risk but not for significantly longer than our standard freezing biome aquifer pierce.  I'll do a writeup/walkthough once I go find someplace to upload the screenshots from my dry run of this.  You will need to spend at least a month keeping your miner constantly diging to skill up enough for the critical step and hope he does not decide to eat/sleep/drink at just the wrong moment and you need to get that step done before he goes into booze withdrawl.

That said I take back what I said earlier about this challenge being impossible in a none freezing biome.  Although the hard part will be finding an embark thats flat, has a 2 layer aquifer, and is reanimating.
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Merendel

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #192 on: September 19, 2013, 12:52:03 am »

Cavein breach of a 2 level aquifer useing only a pick 1 bucket and 1 log that is recoverable at a later date.  Hostile biome safe.   Note screen caps are not from a barren biome so ignore tree/shrub growths, Didn't use any for the breach.

The first thing you must do is yourself safely underground.  Once you've accomplished that Dig an offshoot from your base to where you want the breach to be.  The footprint up to the surface will be 9x9 with an underground footprint of 10x10 mostly to control flooding from the splashdown.  Z lvl 0 for this example is the layer directly above the aquifer, z-1 is first aquifer Z-2 second aquifer  Z+1 first soil layer and Z+2 is the surface.

Designate a 9x9 of upstairs on Z-0 Centerd in that designation an 8x8 of normal dig, in the very center an up/down stair.  On Z+1 designate up/down stairs over all of the stairs from the level below.  On Z+1 also designate a path so you can access this area later, it will be where you trigger the cavein from.  Note I had 2 additional channels on Z+1 in the screenshots that proved redundant. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Channel out some of the walls surrounding the stairs on Z-0. Leave an access path so you can still get in here.  These channels catch water during the cavein to reduce how far the flood enters your base.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now for the critical part.  Your going to have to do a chickenrun to reach the second layer of the aquifer.  In the center of of the area under the up/down stair designate an updown on Z-1.  you will want to use the one step as your miner is diging.  As soon as the tile clears you need to designate a second up/down on Z-2.  If you dont 1 step this the chamber will flood before your miner can dig into the second layer of the aquifer and you'll have to start over in a new spot. Your miner will also need to be skilled up. I did it with my dwarf that had the best str/agility stats at miner level 12.  At lvl 10 he only had a 50 50 chance of getting it done.  Make sure your miner is always digging to skill up and do a test run of the chickenrun somewhere else to make sure he can pull it off.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thats the hard part. If you've gotten this far your mostly home free as long as undead flyers dont get you later when you expose to the surface.  On Z-1 order the 8 squares adjacent to your up/down stair drain channeled out.  This will result in both layers of the aquifer having empty squares here. Careful not to channel out the stairs at the same time or you'll drown your miner and lose your pick.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


now for the risky part.  From here on out your workers will be exposed to flyers although land based monsters should never have access to your dwarves.  On the surface (Z+2) Designate channels over all the upstairs.  Your miner can access them from below thanks to the upstairs on Z+1 but there will never be a walkable path into your base even as your channeling.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Next Channel out all the stairs on Z+1 except for the one next to your access path on that level.  This stair is your trigger for the cavein. Don't forget the stair in the center.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Remove all the upstairs on Z-0
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Channel out the splashdown area.  Despite what the image shows I suggest you do this one row at a time to avoid miner accidents. Technically you could do this step before opening your work area to the surface.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Were ready to pull the trigger.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Channel out the remaining upstair on Z+1.  On my map I tried channeling out the tile before(between the 2 open spaces) for miner safety. turns out the stair was attached to the surface ground.  I had to build a temporary floor to get at it.  I would recommend you give the pick to a different dwarf. There is a small chance he could get blasted into the wall by the cave in and die.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Splash
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you haven't made your bucket by this point do so now.  Designate a water zone next to the 3x3 full of water, Dispose of it however you see fit.  I dug an up stair to Z+1 and dumped the water from there back into the aquifer.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Once the water is down to 3 deep you can channel out the ring around the 3x3 and the rest of that layer should evaporate on its own.  This also gives you a convenient down-ramp to the next level.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sadly you can not designate a water source next to the up/down stairs on this level so channel out the stair.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

get your bucket master back to hauling the last 6 buckets worth out of the center tile.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Use one of your remaining logs to rebuild the downstairs so you can access the next level down.  You can recover this log later once you have stone.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Congratulations.  Now that the stair is once again connected your miner can dig strait down under the aquifer.  And you only lost a single log permanently.  With proper juggling of resources you can setup a butchery Butcher your draft animals and even make a barrel to store some of the food in while your finishing your aquifer pierce.  You will need to recover the log from your downstairs before you can make your axe but that shouldn't be too hard.
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Stochasty

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #193 on: September 19, 2013, 01:25:12 am »

That is a thing of beauty, Merendel.  Bravo.
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Merendel

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Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« Reply #194 on: September 19, 2013, 03:41:02 am »

That is a thing of beauty, Merendel.  Bravo.

Thank you, And thank vanatteveldt.  Without his efforts I'd never have struck on a viable option.  I was toying around with his method trying to pull this off and was all but pulling my hair out.  Finaly I thought that it was too bad I couldnt just drop the whole thing at once to get around the problems I was runing into.  Thought about it some more and then decided to try and find a way to do the drop in one go.   You can see a bit of the edge of one of my failed tries on Z-0 off to the right.   That particular embark was actualy a Serene surroundings and I brought a ton of food/drink so I could just play around with different methods and not have to worry about keeping my dwarves alive while I figured out how to do that.  Even with that going for me I lost 3 dwarves in the proccess, one drowning, one got knocked back from a caven and crushed his skull and one dwarven pancake.

Right now I'm trying to generate a world to use this technique on for real.   Its surprisingly difficult to get terrifying in a hot climate with a completely barren environment.   Found a few in cold areas but I could just do a freezing pierce in those.  I could still try this in a cold climet but theres a good chance that if my dwarf falls forward during the cavein the pick will end up in the splash zone which will end up covered in ice.
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