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Author Topic: Darkest Dungeon II. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Wagon Life.  (Read 209747 times)

Ai Shizuka

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Not sure I agree. There's an element of RNG everywhere, from who goes first to how much damage an attack does. Without any RNG layer, it would be a pure build / decision making process. Hell even MTG has an element of RNG in what cards are available, when.

Now, that said, people have always criticized the RNG in DD as being too heavy handed. That crits matter too much no matter which direction you're looking. So I don't think it should be a surprise that it's still true in DD PvP.

But I wouldn't fault anyone for considering it hot garbage. It's easy to overlook that in the SP because you can save scum or w/e. But that sense of "I had that!" and being robbed, when there is another human player involved, I can easily see that being a bridge too far.

Like I said, I was watching a stream and a dude failed to get a deathblow at pretty much the most critical moment, and my instantaneous reaction was to close the stream, much like I'd switch away from a TV program that was inflicting weaponzed levels of cringe.  As per my original post, DD works on my anxiety and sense of "entitlement" more so than most games I've ever played. Which is why I'd never touch the PvP, even with another balance pass.

RNG can have an impact in single player, but there are multiple safety measures a good player can put in place. Consumables, appropriate team composition, the retreat button. Even a failed mission isn't a huge deal. I've had several zero-deaths clean runs on the highest difficulty (except
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
). Better players have completed the game with crazy limitations like no stuns, no heals, no light. So RNG can be almost nullified in single player.

I'm not against RNG per se, but in the current PvP format one single bad roll can literally mean a defeat screen. When the opponent hits a deathblow at the first chance vs 80% resist and you miss three deathblows in a row, well, that's bad design.

A pure design/build decision making process is not a bad thing, in my opinion, because the game is complex enough. In one single round, a player has 4 decisions to take, respectively with 16+12+8+4 options, so it will never be a simple rock/paper/scissor affair.
Crits are an important feature in this game, so I agree that they cannot be simply wiped out from PvP. But I think they should be significantly toned down. Maybe a crit should add just some stress damage instead of transforming a simple attack to "LOL YOU ARE ON DEATH'S DOOR IN ONE HIT".

And the main offender is the whole deathblow business. That one seriously needs some work. I don't know how I would deal with it. Maybe something like stress, adding a second HP bar?

Also, I admit I may be slightly pissed off by the achievements. Why? I don't know, usually I'm not an achievement fanatic. But Darkest Dungeon for some reason is a game I've always wanted to keep at 100%. This DLC has changed everything.
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nenjin

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I've always felt crit damage was pretty extreme, even in SP. Sometimes more than double damage.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the deathblow RNG hasn't gotten enough attention as it exists in PvP. It seems like they thought through a lot of SP game mechanics as it relates to PvP, but there's always a chance it hasn't been tuned enough. IMO, Deathblow Resist doesn't even really make sense for PvP. Certainly not at the levels that exist in SP.

I remember a bit after release they revisited crit chance for being too "streaky." Maybe they need to do that same application to Deathblows in PvP.

At the end of the day though, I think DD is always going to have an infuriating element to RNG. I don't know why, almost no other game I've played has caused me to have such a visceral reaction to RNG like DD. (Maybe XCOM, Cultist Simulator to a much lesser degree.)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 02:33:52 pm by nenjin »
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Ai Shizuka

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I don't know why, almost no other game I've played has caused me to have such a visceral reaction to RNG like DD. (Maybe XCOM, Cultist Simulator to a much lesser degree.)

Maybe something related to the small team size and average fight duration? Fights rarely last long and a couple bad rolls can have a huge impact.
Also, how it's presented. The sound effect, the narrator's quotes. The whole package delivers a tangible "fuck you" effect.
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nenjin

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Yeah, how crunchy the presentation is has a ton to do with it. The guys deserve a medal for how well they manage to influence our psychology as gamers with such things, because many games never manage to leverage simple aesthetics to such a degree. Like the SMASH CUT to your dude when they take a crit is so effective, it's hard to not cheer or screech when you're dealing them out or receiving them.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

nenjin

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1429 on: November 16, 2020, 01:20:50 pm »

Just learned via this new trailer that DD2 is going to be an Epic Games Store exclusive.

Love the game, love Red Hook, but fuck that. Guess I'll miss the hype train, no big loss.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

IronyOwl

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1430 on: November 16, 2020, 01:44:14 pm »

The comments on that trailer are great, though.

Quote
"The community reads a most unsettling passage."
Quote
>Darkest dungeon 2
“You remember our house, opulent and imperial...
>EGS
Its a festering abomination!”
Quote
"Welcome home, such as it is. This squalid hamlet, these corrupted lands, they are yours now, and you are bound to them."

I don't mind, personally, but I'm concerned about their ability to do an eldritch zombie apocalypse. DD is brilliant enough that I'll probably end up preordering anyway just to support them, though. With luck all those Epic Shekels will let them do something really great with it.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1431 on: November 16, 2020, 02:02:17 pm »

In all likelihood they'll be in early access for at least a year regardless, so if you hate epic you may as well just wait and buy it on steam once it's done.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1432 on: November 16, 2020, 02:12:20 pm »

I'll certainly be following its progress to see how it turns out. DD is pretty damn good, and I want to see where they go from here.
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LordPorkins

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1433 on: November 16, 2020, 02:15:13 pm »

My biggest complaint is the fact that by doing this they've more or less spat in the face of modders. Modding is a huge part of the DD community, and they even have a Weekly Mod Showcase. A lot players know the names of Marvin Seo, Miraclebutt, and yes, even Muscarine, (Lotta M's there. Huh.), even if they dont play with any mods. Having the game up for a year on a platform that only just got mod support (And a shit one at that), is a pretty big middle finger.

Plus, you know. The usual complaints. Lack of community input, etc, etc.

The trailer looks pretty damn kickass though.
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nenjin

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1434 on: November 17, 2020, 10:23:14 am »

Not quite sure how I feel about the slightly taller looking characters. I wrote "realistically proportioned" at first but tbh, the original DD characters weren't that far in to bobble-head territory. I wonder if that's just for the trailers or if they're going to look that way in the game as well.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Damiac

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1435 on: November 17, 2020, 10:34:23 am »

Just learned via this new trailer that DD2 is going to be an Epic Games Store exclusive.

Love the game, love Red Hook, but fuck that. Guess I'll miss the hype train, no big loss.

Yeah no thanks, I don't need a chinese botnet on my PC thank you very much. 

I come back to this game every so often. The atmosphere is awesome, the gameplay's a little simplistic though.  Some classes seem just pointless, like abomination and hellion, they just seem like crappier versions of better heroes.  Any good team including a jester and vestal/occultist causes you to lose out on some of the possible combinations, which seems like a shame.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1436 on: November 17, 2020, 10:39:38 am »

Just learned via this new trailer that DD2 is going to be an Epic Games Store exclusive.

Love the game, love Red Hook, but fuck that. Guess I'll miss the hype train, no big loss.

Yeah no thanks, I don't need a chinese botnet on my PC thank you very much. 

I come back to this game every so often. The atmosphere is awesome, the gameplay's a little simplistic though.  Some classes seem just pointless, like abomination and hellion, they just seem like crappier versions of better heroes.  Any good team including a jester and vestal/occultist causes you to lose out on some of the possible combinations, which seems like a shame.

I'm pretty sure not everyone that was involved with the original Darkest Dungeon are still with Red Hook.  I researched it a bit, and they definitely had a parting of the ways over the direction that the studio was going.  Try and hunt down where the deserters landed if you're looking for a similar vibe without the Epic Games Store and other drama. Nevermind, can't find any support for this fact.  There are however a few games clearly inspired by Darkest Dungeon, even with similar graphics.

nenjin

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1437 on: November 17, 2020, 11:15:29 am »

Oh I wasn't aware of that. I thought DD was mostly just the two guys who came up with the original design. Are both Chris and Tyler still at Red Hook?
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1438 on: November 17, 2020, 11:21:55 am »

I think this whole hate wave over Epic exclusivity is kind of uncalled for. TBH I think Epic´s hatred borders paranoia as it is (I don´t like their underhanded "exclusivity" tactics. But Steam has a quasimonopoly and nobody worries about THAT), and this whole train "oh no the people from the original Red Hook are gone" is groanworthy. A quick google search shows that´s not the case:

https://www.darkestdungeon.com/our-team/


I´m not exactly thrilled about Epic exclusivity (in part because of the forementioned issue, in part because of platform inflation), but I´ll decide on the go what I do.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 11:23:34 am by ChairmanPoo »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Darkest Dungeon. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Now with...PvP?!?!
« Reply #1439 on: November 17, 2020, 11:27:12 am »

Yeah, I can't really find anything to support my earlier post.  Guess its just one of those fake facts that got jammed in my noggin.  Sorry about that.
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