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Author Topic: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game[0.34.11]  (Read 28501 times)

Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2014, 08:47:44 am »

As you said weapons fired from traps have a set speed, but how about Projectile weapons, will the projectiles have that speed, its max speed or something other than that?

/Zorbeltuss

Like crossbows mounted in a weapon trap? I don't know, good question. I will look into this.

EDIT: The bolts are fired at the fixed weapon trap velocity of 200. The number of crossbows in the trap appear to merely determine the number of bolts fired at once. The trap appears to use the fake projectile method rather than actually shooting the bolts.

There doesn't appear to be a reload delay like with marksdwarves, so the trap can easily "empty the clip" into the first victim over a few ticks. It's like a machine gun hooked up to a tripwire.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 09:31:34 am by Urist Da Vinci »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2014, 10:21:42 pm »

Updated combat script to (somewhat) show blunt combat data for body parts:

Code: (combat.lua) [Select]

--Calculates combat info for weapons/armor. Alpha version!

--Future goal is to calculate info for body part weapons (using attack info), wounded tissue layers
--ranged weapons


unit=dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit()
if unit==nil then
print ("No unit under cursor!  Aborting!")
return
end

print("Creature size (base/current): ", unit.body.size_info.size_base, unit.body.size_info.size_cur)
print("Creature strength (base): ", unit.body.physical_attrs.STRENGTH.value) --should update to use curse strengths etc.
print(" ")

for k,v in pairs(unit.inventory) do

--print(v.mode)
--enum-item Hauled 0
--enum-item Weapon 1
--enum-item Worn 2
--enum-item InBody 3
--enum-item Flask 4
--enum-item WrappedAround 5
--enum-item StuckIn 6
--enum-item InMouth 7
--enum-item Shouldered 8
--enum-item SewnInto 9

vitype=df.item_type[v.item:getType()]
print(vitype)
material=dfhack.matinfo.decode(v.item)
matdata=material.material.strength
vmatname=material.material.state_name.Solid
--print(vmatname, v.item.subtype.name) --WOULD ENABLE THIS BUT BUG ON QUIVERS, OTHER ITEMS W/O SUBTYPES!

vbpart=unit.body.body_plan.body_parts[v.body_part_id]
print(vbpart.name_singular[0].value)

if vitype=="WEAPON" then
print(vmatname, v.item.subtype.name)
v.item:calculateWeight()
effweight=unit.body.size_info.size_cur/100+v.item.weight*100+v.item.weight_fraction/10000
actweight=v.item.weight*1000+v.item.weight_fraction/1000
if v.item.subtype.flags.HAS_EDGE_ATTACK==true then
print("shear yield, shear fracture: ", matdata.yield.SHEAR, matdata.fracture.SHEAR)
print("Sharpness: ", v.item.sharpness)
end
print("NAME", "EDGE", "CONTACT", "PNTRT", "WEIGHT", "VEL", "MOMENTUM(+100%/-50%)")
for kk,vv in pairs(v.item.subtype.attacks) do
vvel=unit.body.size_info.size_base * unit.body.physical_attrs.STRENGTH.value *

vv.velocity_mult/1000/effweight/1000
vmom=vvel*actweight/1000+1
vedge="blunt"
vcut=""
if vv.edged==true then
vedge="edged"
vcut=100
end
print(vv.verb_2nd, vedge, vv.contact, vv.penetration, actweight/1000, math.floor(vvel), math.floor(vmom))
end
actvol=v.item:getVolume()
print("Blunt deflect if layer weight more than:", actvol * matdata.yield.IMPACT / 100 / 500)

else
if v.mode==1 then
--item held in hands treated as misc weapon
--1000 velocity mod, power math for contact and penetration
print(vmatname, "(misc weapon)") --v.item.subtype.name quiver bug
actvol=v.item:getVolume()
v.item:calculateWeight()
actweight=v.item.weight*1000+v.item.weight_fraction/1000
effweight=unit.body.size_info.size_cur/100+v.item.weight*100+v.item.weight_fraction/10000
misccontact=math.floor(actvol ^ 0.666)
miscpene=math.floor((actvol*10000) ^ 0.333)
print("NAME", "EDGE", "CONTACT", "PNTRT", "WEIGHT", "VEL", "MOMENTUM(+100%/-50%)")
vvel=unit.body.size_info.size_base * unit.body.physical_attrs.STRENGTH.value/effweight/1000
vmom=vvel*actweight/1000+1
vedge="blunt"
print("strike", vedge, misccontact, miscpene, actweight/1000, math.floor(vvel), math.floor(vmom))
print("Blunt deflect if layer weight more than:", actvol * matdata.yield.IMPACT / 100 / 500)
print(" ")
end
end


if vitype=="ARMOR" or vitype=="HELM" or vitype=="GLOVES" or vitype=="SHOES" or vitype=="PANTS" then
print(vmatname, v.item.subtype.name)
actvol=v.item:getVolume()
v.item:calculateWeight()
actweight=v.item.weight*1000+v.item.weight_fraction/1000
vbca=actvol*matdata.yield.IMPACT/100/500/10
vbcb=actvol*(matdata.fracture.IMPACT-matdata.yield.IMPACT)/100/500/10
vbcc=actvol*(matdata.fracture.IMPACT-matdata.yield.IMPACT)/100/500/10
deduct=vbca/10
if matdata.strain_at_yield.IMPACT >= 50000 or v.item.subtype.props.flags.STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD==true or

v.item.subtype.props.flags.STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL==true or v.item.subtype.props.flags.STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL==true

then
vbcb=0
vbcc=0
end
print("Full contact blunt momentum resist: ", math.floor(vbca+vbcb+vbcc))
print("Contact 10 blunt momentum resist: ", math.floor((vbca+vbcb+vbcc)*10/actvol))
print("Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10): ", math.floor(deduct), math.floor(deduct*10/actvol))
print("Volume/contact area/penetration: ", actvol)
print("Weight: ", actweight/1000)
vshyre=matdata.yield.SHEAR
vshfre=matdata.fracture.SHEAR
if v.item.subtype.props.flags.STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_WOVEN_THREAD==true and vmatname ~= "leather" then
if vshyre>20000 then vshyre=20000 end
if vshfre>30000 then vshfre=30000 end
end
print("shear yield, shear fracture: ", vshyre, vshfre)
end

print(" ")
end    --end of unit inventory loop


--printall(unit.body.body_plan.attacks) --wait for next DFHack version?
--print(" ")

print("BODY PART ATTACKS (some assumptions!)")
print("NAME", " ", "SIZE", "CONTACT", "PNTRT", "WEIGHT", "VEL", "MOMENTUM(+100%/-50%)")
for k,v in pairs(unit.body.body_plan.body_parts) do
if v.flags.STANCE==true or v.flags.GRASP==true then
--ASSUME THAT ALL GRASP/STANCE PARTS ARE COMBAT
partsize = math.floor(unit.body.size_info.size_cur * v.relsize / unit.body.body_plan.total_relsize)
contact = math.floor(partsize ^ 0.666)
partweight = math.floor(partsize * 500 / 100) --bone, change to 8250 for bronze colossus etc.
vvel = 100 * unit.body.physical_attrs.STRENGTH.value / 1000 --some assumptions
vmom = vvel * partweight / 1000 + 1
print(v.name_singular[0].value, partsize, contact, partsize, partweight/1000, vvel, vmom)
end
end

print(" ")
print("BODY PART DEFENSE (some assumptions/bugs!)")
print("Volume/Contact/Thickness/Blunt_Momentum_Resistance(full contact)")

for k,v in pairs(unit.body.body_plan.body_parts) do
if (v.flags.SMALL==false and v.flags.INTERNAL==false) or v.flags.TOTEMABLE==true or false then
--change the final "or false" to "or true" to list all body parts!
--(or just change the whole statement to "if true then" instead of checking the flags

partsize = math.floor(unit.body.size_info.size_base * v.relsize / unit.body.body_plan.total_relsize)
partthick = math.floor((partsize * 10000) ^ 0.333)
contact = math.floor(partsize ^ 0.666)

print(v.name_singular[0].value)

for kk,vv in pairs(v.layers) do


layername = vv.layer_name
matdata=nil
for x,y in pairs(unit.body.body_plan.materials.mat_type) do
--Temporary kludge
material=dfhack.matinfo.decode(y, unit.body.body_plan.materials.mat_index[x])
if material.material.id==layername then
matdata=material.material.strength
break
end
if material.material.id=="" then --kludge for bronze colossus
matdata=material.material.strength
break
end
end

if matdata~=nil then

modpartfraction= vv.part_fraction

if layername == "FAT" then
modpartfraction = unit.counters2.stored_fat * modpartfraction / 2500 / 100
end

if layername == "MUSCLE" then
--should update to consider strength bonus due to curses etc.
modpartfraction = unit.body.physical_attrs.STRENGTH.value * modpartfraction / 1000
end

layervolume = math.floor(partsize * modpartfraction / v.fraction_total)
layerthick = math.floor(partthick * modpartfraction / v.fraction_total)
if layervolume == 0 then
layervolume = 1
end
if layerthick == 0 then
layerthick = 1
end

vbca=layervolume*matdata.yield.IMPACT/100/500/10
vbcb=layervolume*(matdata.fracture.IMPACT-matdata.yield.IMPACT)/100/500/10
vbcc=layervolume*(matdata.fracture.IMPACT-matdata.yield.IMPACT)/100/500/10
deduct= math.floor(vbca/10)
if matdata.strain_at_yield.IMPACT >= 50000 then
vbcb=0
vbcc=0
end
fullbmr= math.floor(vbca+vbcb+vbcc)

print(" ",vv.layer_name, layervolume, contact, layerthick, fullbmr)

else
--temporary material kludge until I get tissue access
print(" ",vv.layer_name,"ERROR-material")
end
end
end
end



Did you know:
- The head has more muscle on it than an arm or leg
- The skull is smaller and weaker than the bones in the hand

EDIT:
Spoiler: large image (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 10:59:32 pm by Urist Da Vinci »
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Putnam

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2014, 10:24:16 pm »

That explains so much.

Sergarr

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2014, 02:03:21 am »

Wait, so all creatures in DF have muscle heads?

Someone must draw that.
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Roses

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2014, 10:26:14 am »

Exactly what I wanted to know. Do you know from about how high up for the boulder to reach the speed needed?

26+ z-levels, which should take 41 ticks to fall from start to finish. Average humanoid creatures can walk ~4 tiles in that time.

I'm revisiting falling projectiles and I have noticed in the arena, that simply dropping a granite boulder from +3 z-levels above a Dwarfs head causes a mortal wound, if not killing them outright. Only tried it a few times, and the Dwarfs were always lying down (just pressed 's' to make frames pass while controlling them), so not sure if that could make a difference.

EDIT: I am also looking at the way normal projectiles behave (in hopes of creating a script that can shoot arrows and such) and have a couple questions, that you may know the answer to. Inspecting thrown projectiles versus created falling projectiles, the following tags seem to be important;
Code: [Select]
fall_threshold -- Seems to be able to hit units further away with larger numbers
min_hit_distance -- Seems to be unable to hit units closer than this value
min_ground_distance -- No idea (seems to be always less than the fall threshold, usually by just 1, but sometimes more)
fall_counter -- No idea (changes during projectile movement, but only sometimes)
fall_delay -- No idea (varies wildly from projectile to projectile)
hit_rating -- I think this is how likely it is to hit a unit (or to go where it should maybe?)
unk22 -- No idea (seems to usually be at 100, but not always)
I was wondering if you had any idea what modifying these numbers actually does to the projectile. I can experiment with it, but figured I would ask before I start playing around in arena mode.

Another curiosity is that a thrown projectile has a speed, in each direction, of 0. Not sure if this is also true for fired projectiles.

EDIT2: Crossbow bolts also have a zero listed speed.

EDIT3: I added what I think each of the numbers do. Changing the speed and accel values doesn't seem to have any effect on the projectile.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 02:11:20 pm by Roses »
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Melting Sky

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2014, 05:32:49 pm »

My apologies for this being a little off topic but I figured this thread is likely to be one of the best places to ask this question. I've seen a lot of science which has been done on weapon and armor types and materials but very little on weapon and armor quality. My own limited testing with weapon quality was rather primitive but it seemed to suggest that quality is not as important a factor as weapon material and type as far as performance goes. Is there anyone who has looked into this subject in any any detail?

For instance I am curious if a piece of bronze artifact armor would be better in most instances than a piece of iron armor that was crafted at the lowest quality level.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 05:36:21 pm by Melting Sky »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2014, 08:06:11 pm »

...
I'm revisiting falling projectiles and I have noticed in the arena, that simply dropping a granite boulder from +3 z-levels above a Dwarfs head causes a mortal wound, if not killing them outright. Only tried it a few times, and the Dwarfs were always lying down (just pressed 's' to make frames pass while controlling them), so not sure if that could make a difference.

...
I was wondering if you had any idea what modifying these numbers actually does to the projectile. I can experiment with it, but figured I would ask before I start playing around in arena mode.
...

There are many miscellaneous factors which influence damage. A thirsty, hungry, nauseated dwarf rolling on the ground in agony from smashed legs will take more damage from attacks than a perfectly healthy dwarf. Lying down in combat is generally a bad idea. For the purposes of this thread, I don't know how much influence each misc factor has on the end result. The worst case is where a creature is unconscious and the melee attacker gets free automatic hits at full power. My calculator script assumes the perfectly healthy, average case.

It is kind of off topic (perhaps it is for the DFHack thread) but you have run across the divide between the old pre-minecart projectiles (fired, thrown, siege weapons) and the new parabolic projectiles (minecarts, "shotgunned" objects/creatures, dropped objects/creatures). Unk22 is the old projectile velocity, which ironically doesn't influence how fast it travels across the screen (which is a constant).

My apologies for this being a little off topic but I figured this thread is likely to be one of the best places to ask this question. I've seen a lot of science which has been done on weapon and armor types and materials but very little on weapon and armor quality. My own limited testing with weapon quality was rather primitive but it seemed to suggest that quality is not as important a factor as weapon material and type as far as performance goes. Is there anyone who has looked into this subject in any any detail?

For instance I am curious if a piece of bronze artifact armor would be better in most instances than a piece of iron armor that was crafted at the lowest quality level.

This is probably the right thread to use. I'll have to look back over my notes and previous posts to give a good answer to this problem.

EDIT: I made notes that blunt weapons seemed to ignore quality. Edged weapons use the quality and the max_edge to set the sharpness, like Quietust describes here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=114734.msg3520721#msg3520721
Iron has [MAX_EDGE:10000], so a no-quality iron short sword has a sharpness of 5000. I mentioned earlier in this thread that the sharpness is used to find the "shear cost" in momentum units when an edged weapon damages a layer.

Using my combat calculator script, I find that on average a noob human does 67 momentum with a slash from an iron short sword. I then use the shear costs, and sharpness 5000 to find that corresponds to cutting through a volume of ~1050 muscle tissue. The calculator also tells me that the average human has a lower body muscle volume of 1148. So it is feasible, but not a given, that a noob human with a no-quality iron sword can spill a human's guts with a single slash. If the sword was masterwork quality rather than no-quality, it could cut ~2100 volume of muscle on average in the human's hands, making internal organ damage or complete bisection much more likely.

Armor quality? I have not tested this. It may be one of those "factors" that I have not explored in detail.

END OF EDIT

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Armor#Quality_and_strange_moods

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Weapon#Quality_and_strange_moods

I am suspicious of some of those numbers from the wiki, since many were just copied forwards from previous versions of the wiki.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 10:41:32 pm by Urist Da Vinci »
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scamtank

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2014, 10:42:30 pm »

They originally came straight from Toady's mouth, though.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2014, 12:11:11 am »

OK, rather than try to figure out the misc factors code, I just used WinDbg to watch the value of the factor.

The factor used in the momentum cost equations is a number that is capped to be within the range 1000 to 2000. It is created by taking an output number "X" from a spaghetti code function, adding 500, and multiplying it by 2. Therefore the useful range of X is 0 to 500.

When a human wearing a iron breastplate was being beaten on with an iron warhammer, the value of X was around 90-96. After using DFHack to make the breastplate masterwork quality, the value of X was around 180-210. This is about double, but only corresponds to a 17% increase in the armor's protective value.

IF artifact armor would increase the unknown, random X by three times, then the real protection would only increase by 33%.
My calculator is giving me this for bronze and iron armor:
Code: [Select]
ARMOR
bronze  breastplate
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     557
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       21
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  30      1
Volume/contact area/penetration:        257
Weight:         21.2025
shear yield, shear fracture:    172000  241000

ARMOR
iron    breastplate
Full contact blunt momentum resist:     836
Contact 10 blunt momentum resist:       32
Unbroken momentum deduction (full,10):  27      1
Volume/contact area/penetration:        257
Weight:         20.1745
shear yield, shear fracture:    155000  310000

So it looks like artifact bronze armor would be weaker than no-quality iron armor. The lower blunt resistance is due to the smaller gap between IMPACT_FRACTURE and IMPACT_YIELD, i.e. bronze is brittle. In fact, copper has slightly better blunt resistance than bronze. Both bronze and iron armors have better shear fractures than copper or silver, so they would still protect against those edged weapons.

In general I would recommend choosing material over choosing quality.

I checked for changes (other than the known sharpness change) to damage when using weapons of differing quality, and found none. A future research topic might be to explore if there is an accuracy/skill bonus to using a quality weapon.

Melting Sky

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2014, 12:51:15 pm »

Gotta love this thread. Thanks for working that out. :)

The increase of effectiveness in armor of higher quality is roughly what I had intuited it to be during my arena trials which is to say that it was not significant enough to trump the material properties. On the other hand, the increased effectiveness of quality edged weapons is considerably greater than what I had been assuming.

As a general rule of thumb I had been equipping my dwarves with low quality iron long swords over masterwork steal short swords and looking at these numbers I no longer think this an exceedingly good idea particularly when taking into account that one of our dwarves most common enemies tends to show up in iron armor occasionally. I guess it would really depend on the foe, but the iron long sword is not the clear winner I thought it was but more like a trade off.

The long sword is over twice the size of the short sword which is a significant advantage particularly when considering that half of a sword's attacks are blunt but its slash attack has a much wider contact area and it's made of an inferior material of inferior quality which means that the steal masterwork short sword's slash will be much better than the iron long sword's against any sort of half decent armor. The stab attack is likely closer to a wash between the two with the iron long sword being able to strike deeper into large enemies with more weight behind it but with the steal masterwork short sword being better at piercing decent armor like goblins in iron. The small contact area of stab attacks helps keep the iron long sword more competitive when it comes to piercing armor than in the case of slashing but I think the short sword probably still comes out slightly ahead overall when it comes to stabbing.

On different note, your brought up how denser armor's protect better against blunt attacks which is something I have always found interesting. Given that denser armor is heavier and thus encumbers the wearer more would it be worth throwing something like a gold artifact chest plate over some masterwork steel chain on a dwarf with decent armor user skill? It seems like it would be good for protecting against blunt attacks but the weight would be brutal.
 


« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:09:47 pm by Melting Sky »
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GavJ

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2014, 05:12:24 pm »

Quote
They originally came straight from Toady's mouth, though.
Toady could easily  forget something like a multiplier then later being multiplied by another multiplier, such that what he thought was a 2x and 3x bonus is in fact a 0.2x and 0.3x bonus or whatever. Just because he said it doesn't mean it's what actually happens. If he had perfect knowledge of his own code, bugs wouldn't exist.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 05:15:46 pm by GavJ »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2014, 08:25:48 pm »

Gotta love this thread. Thanks for working that out. :)
...
On different note, your brought up how denser armor's protect better against blunt attacks which is something I have always found interesting. Given that denser armor is heavier and thus encumbers the wearer more would it be worth throwing something like a gold artifact chest plate over some masterwork steel chain on a dwarf with decent armor user skill? It seems like it would be good for protecting against blunt attacks but the weight would be brutal.

The density of most metal armors will cause wood weapons and some other soft (low IMPACT_YIELD) materials to deflect. However, punches/kicks (which are treated as bone for attack purposes) and metal blunt weapons will get through your gold breastplate with no trouble. The extra weight would slow you down, probably making it hard to dodge. Gold armor would only really be useful against elves or giant sponges.

If you go to the momentum cost equations earlier in this thread, you can see how you want to have high values of IMPACT_FRACTURE and IMPACT_YIELD rather than density.

Melting Sky

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #118 on: April 30, 2014, 12:08:05 am »

The density of most metal armors will cause wood weapons and some other soft (low IMPACT_YIELD) materials to deflect. However, punches/kicks (which are treated as bone for attack purposes) and metal blunt weapons will get through your gold breastplate with no trouble. The extra weight would slow you down, probably making it hard to dodge. Gold armor would only really be useful against elves or giant sponges.

If you go to the momentum cost equations earlier in this thread, you can see how you want to have high values of IMPACT_FRACTURE and IMPACT_YIELD rather than density.

That's a shame. I figured it would at least deflect punches and kicks decently given how they use the relatively light weight bones in those appendages as the basis for the calculation. I realize that impact yield and impact fracture are the most important values when it comes to determining whether a weapon will pierce armor but I was thinking of using the artifact gold chest plate on top of the steel chain simply for its ability to deflect light weight weapon impacts using poor materials such as bone and wood projectiles along with natural unarmed attacks. I know if the weapon material is poorer than that of the armor it is trying to pierce then the game does a deflection check which is based on the weight of the projectile vs that of the armor it is trying to pierce which is why steel will outperform candy in this regard. Thus I figured there would be some circumstances where gold artifact armor would similarly outperform its lighter masterwork steel counterpart.

Maybe if I paired it with some candy chain on one of my skilled armor users it would be worth it since the candy essentially weighs nothing and is particularly poor at deflecting projectiles so the gold's weight wouldn't be such a burden and it would cover the candy's one weak point. (I'm trying way too hard to find some way to justify the existence of this artifact.)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 12:29:16 am by Melting Sky »
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Angle

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #119 on: June 16, 2014, 10:38:40 am »

I am myself trying to make a roguelike, and of course I had to go and make things difficult for myself and try and use real world physics, and Sergarr suggested I ask you for advice. Can you give me some advice on translating the values in the raws to metric, and/or looking up more proper values? Advice on more realistic game logic to use for combat would be appreciated too. I'm currently measuring distances in centimeters and density in g/cm^3.
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