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Author Topic: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game[0.34.11]  (Read 25763 times)

Roses

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2013, 09:01:14 pm »

Ah, the former is indeed what happened, but I think I may have fixed that due to ridiculous "cracked muscle".

If the strain is 0-24999 then the words "shattering", "chipping", "fracturing" are used.
If the strain is 25000+ then the words "tearing" and "tearing apart" are used.

Chipping is less than 25% of the surface area of the body part.
Shattering and Tearing Apart imply complete destruction of the layer, whereas Fracturing and Tearing are incomplete damage.

Is the strain the only value that leads to the word changes? I want to make certain creatures have a steel like skin, but still use the "tearing" and such. I assume that means I can copy all of the steel values except for the strain values, and then just keep the skin strain values?
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2013, 09:44:06 pm »

Ah, the former is indeed what happened, but I think I may have fixed that due to ridiculous "cracked muscle".

If the strain is 0-24999 then the words "shattering", "chipping", "fracturing" are used.
If the strain is 25000+ then the words "tearing" and "tearing apart" are used.

Chipping is less than 25% of the surface area of the body part.
Shattering and Tearing Apart imply complete destruction of the layer, whereas Fracturing and Tearing are incomplete damage.

Is the strain the only value that leads to the word changes? I want to make certain creatures have a steel like skin, but still use the "tearing" and such. I assume that means I can copy all of the steel values except for the strain values, and then just keep the skin strain values?

Not exactly - copy the steel values, but then change all the strain values to something like 25001. Steel skin wouldn't be damaged under blunt impacts if the strain was 50000+, as mentioned in this thread - it would simply be ignored and bypassed.

Walkaboutout

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2013, 12:49:35 pm »

Quote
Is the strain the only value that leads to the word changes? I want to make certain creatures have a steel like skin, but still use the "tearing" and such. I assume that means I can copy all of the steel values except for the strain values, and then just keep the skin strain values?

Just a note here. Urist answered already with his suggestion, but your question totally turned a light on in my own head about a personal mod I've been working on recently. While my thread about upgrading dragon scales will give the whole story, in a nutshell one thing I did is exactly what you asked about, and I wanted to tell you my results.

Thanks to input and advice from others in that thread, I had defined tooth, claw, scale, and bone on my new dragons, with material values that were that of metals; I eventually settled on steel statistics. But of course, dragon against dragon, resulted in a ton of denting and fracturing of scale, but no penetration beyond that whatsoever.

So, first, after reading your question, I removed all the strain values. That resulted in the same issue still, dents and fractures all day long, with one notable difference. The scale strain numbers were such that now, while still never penetrating each other's scale layer's completely, those attacks were now accompanied by a ton of bruising to the fat and muscle layers beneath the outer scale layer. My ultimate solution, if anyone reading is interested, was to just define their claws and teeth as just a tiny bit better than their bone and scale properties, so that they could actually inflict real woulds again.

That's probably no surprise to you, or others, in this thread but I thought I would confirm the strain thing with my own observations of some testing there. I've since decided NOT to define strain values on any creature tissue materials that I define with other properties because, until Urist gave the numbers, there was no way of knowing what those strain values would be. And I'm lazy.

But also, to me it seems a more realistic way to have a tissue, like say scale, mimic a metal, but still have the sort of give that tissues in dwarf fortress have (thus keeping realistic things like bruises happening to lower layers below the scales). Just a way to maintain a little bit of consistency in my own mind at least.

My two cents, for what it's worth :)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:58:02 pm by Walkaboutout »
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Roses

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2013, 01:56:51 pm »

Not exactly - copy the steel values, but then change all the strain values to something like 25001. Steel skin wouldn't be damaged under blunt impacts if the strain was 50000+, as mentioned in this thread - it would simply be ignored and bypassed.

Using this I keep getting dented skin instead of cut or bruised. Any ideas? Not a huge problem, but it's just a little weird when looking at a dwarfs wounds.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2013, 09:56:46 pm »

Not exactly - copy the steel values, but then change all the strain values to something like 25001. Steel skin wouldn't be damaged under blunt impacts if the strain was 50000+, as mentioned in this thread - it would simply be ignored and bypassed.

Using this I keep getting dented skin instead of cut or bruised. Any ideas? Not a huge problem, but it's just a little weird when looking at a dwarfs wounds.

Tissues have to be vascular (blood-containing) to bruise. Your steel skin may not be.

If it dents instead of tearing, you just haven't hit it hard enough!

Greiger

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2013, 01:12:20 am »

Don't dents show up on unmodded dwarf skin too?  Or is have I just been playing a modded game too long?? 

I remember seeing wound lists that mention denting the outermost layer.  So dents might be what it's supposed to do, the stronger values might just make it more common compared to weaker flesh.
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Putnam

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2013, 02:39:45 am »

I've seen dents in heads.

Roses

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2013, 01:55:52 pm »

Don't dents show up on unmodded dwarf skin too?  Or is have I just been playing a modded game too long?? 

I remember seeing wound lists that mention denting the outermost layer.  So dents might be what it's supposed to do, the stronger values might just make it more common compared to weaker flesh.

Ah, that could be. It's been awhile since I have looked at the actual wounds in vanilla.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2013, 05:13:59 pm »

If the complete volume (contact area and depth) of a layer is destroyed, the message is "tearing apart" or "shattering" depending on strain. The layer also loses its structural connectivity, which is important for severing.

If only a portion of the layer has been destroyed, the message is "tearing" or "fracturing" depending on strain. If the contact area is less than 25% of the body part's surface area, fracturing becomes "chipping".

Finally if the layer yielded a bit without taking real damage, the message is "denting", or "bruising" depending on vascular tissue.

Roses

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2013, 05:31:47 pm »

Hmm, my skin tissue has VASCULAR:1 but still shows as denting. I will have to do some more testing.
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Lukander

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2013, 03:34:39 pm »

One quick (and potentially dumb) question: "If the weapon has a smaller contact area than the layer, the layer's volume is reduced by the ratio of areas." -Urist Da Vinci.

How is this expressed as an equation?
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2013, 06:00:41 pm »

One quick (and potentially dumb) question: "If the weapon has a smaller contact area than the layer, the layer's volume is reduced by the ratio of areas." -Urist Da Vinci.

How is this expressed as an equation?

(Volume damaged by weapon) = (layer volume) x (weapon contact area) / (layer contact area)

I've mentioned somewhere how to calculate body part contact areas, but IIRC the contact area of a dwarf's upper body is ~117.

Analogy: If you put a steak on a table and then hit it with a hammer, only the part under the hammer's head is damaged. The steak's resistance to damage is determined by the volume under the hammer head, and not the volume of the entire steak.

Lukander

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2013, 06:53:18 pm »

Ah, thank you... Doesn't that lead to odd behavior with armor volume and area being equal?

As an example if I double armor volume the armor area scales to match exactly so thicker armor only offers better mass for deflection purposes (but not for YIELD or FRACTURE calculations, because the ratio keeps the effective contact area constant?). Derp, well it also has an effect vs. a weapons penetration value (unless that uses the effective contact area as well?)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 07:05:00 pm by Lukander »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2013, 09:43:23 pm »

Ah, thank you... Doesn't that lead to odd behavior with armor volume and area being equal?

As an example if I double armor volume the armor area scales to match exactly so thicker armor only offers better mass for deflection purposes (but not for YIELD or FRACTURE calculations, because the ratio keeps the effective contact area constant?). Derp, well it also has an effect vs. a weapons penetration value (unless that uses the effective contact area as well?)

I made this thread so people could try to wrap their brains around the zany combat mechanics of DF. Having fun yet?  :P

Length and penetration values are unscaled by contact area, so the clothing worn by large creatures such as the Demon Lords in some Human civilizations is too thick to penetrate with unmodded weapons. Clothing and armor for large creatures is also too heavy for them to carry, due to how the armor weight and creature strength scale.

CyberUrist

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Re: Modding material properties vs. how the properties are used by the game
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2013, 06:37:33 pm »

Posting to watch, this is great! So, if you modded dwarves to be really fat, like rolling blobs of fat with beards, and then made superslade floors, and dropped them from really high up, they would probably explode or get hurt really badly?

(This is my superslade entry, in inorganic_metal, needs improvement. Help would be appreciated, but not necessary:)
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