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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 215800 times)

Reelya

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2100 on: December 06, 2016, 07:16:07 am »

Personally my hunch is that in a few years they're going to be turning around and saying there's no such thing as dark matter, it was just a crutch to fill in some other blank they didn't know about. Dark matter is only needed because of assumptions about cosmic inflation which have been challenged by more recent theories.

Not holding my breath over the EM drive either. Saying the EM drive works because of dark matter might sound so ludicrous in a few years it will be viewed the way we view oxygen being thought of as "dephlogisticated air".
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 07:18:28 am by Reelya »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2101 on: December 06, 2016, 08:21:51 am »

Personally my hunch is that in a few years they're going to be turning around and saying there's no such thing as dark matter, it was just a crutch to fill in some other blank they didn't know about. Dark matter is only needed because of assumptions about cosmic inflation which have been challenged by more recent theories.
DM is needed to explain galactic rotation curves, the Bullet Cluster, and most importantly (IMO) the peak distribution in acoustic oscillations seen in the CMBR. As far as I can see, neither of those has anything to do with inflation.
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Max™

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2102 on: December 06, 2016, 09:55:49 am »

Yup, there will never be a point where we go "oops, guess we didn't actually think there was dark matter causing lensing in these clusters" because that isn't an example where a hypothesis exists to be falsified, it is literally an observed fact that the distribution of visible mass and the distribution of mass detectable by the distortion of light passing through the clusters indicate that there is a lot of stuff we can't see sitting there making a surprisingly deep gravity well.

I think of that one as being most important, though the rotation curves and CMBR distribution are also important and not simple things where we'll ever go "whoops, musta been wrong about something" without that "something" being like... relativity itself.

Inflation is tied to the concept of and justification for dark energy, which might be what confused Reelya. DM doesn't really change too much about the whole "there was something, it unfurled, everything we know is cooling debris from the aftermath" description of the early universe, but dark energy can stand in as a mechanism to provide the "briefly it uh... explosively expanded" bits which are useful to explain things like why pieces of the universe which should have been out of causal contact seem like they were actually able to interact at some point, but we need a reason for the observed rate of expansion and initial rate of expansion to have step changes in between at some point.
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martinuzz

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2103 on: December 08, 2016, 07:43:33 am »

The ESA headquarters experienced a tremor of nearly 5.0 on the Richter scale, when everyone in the building simultaneously sighed in relief.

Despite the recent failure if their Mars lander craft, the EU has decided to continue funding of their Mars missions until at least 2024

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x2yzh9

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2104 on: December 08, 2016, 11:35:12 am »

So there's a lot of stuff about planet x on the Web now, at least now that I'm looking for it. There's speculation that it's a dead star, or some type of gas giant. Due to the delicate nature of electromagnetism in the solar system, I would postulate that even a minor adjustment in its 3600 year orbit would cause adverse effects one way or the other. Now what I'm getting at here is the concept of climate change, and dark matter as well.

But, before I go on further about this, who is disdainful of the idea that 'planet x' presents a problem? I'd rather know that now then continue in discussing it just to have my argument thrown out the window

i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2105 on: December 08, 2016, 12:06:12 pm »

While there are signs that a larger planet a long distance away might exist (based on the movement of certain Kuiper Belt objects such as the dwarf planet Sedna there could be a mars-sized object out around 53 AU or a neptune-sized one out around 1500 AU), the effects of such a planet on us are extremely, extremely tiny, to the point of being basically unnoticeable. No blaming climate change or anything even close to being similar in scale on any distant planet.

(As a further note, analysis of mid-infrared observations with the WISE telescope have ruled out the possibility of a Saturn-sized object (95 Earth masses) out to 10,000 AU, and a Jupiter-sized or larger object out to 26,000 AU. If there is something out there then it's either small, meaning no oldsters, or very far away).
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2106 on: December 08, 2016, 12:08:50 pm »

So there's a lot of stuff about planet x on the Web now, at least now that I'm looking for it. There's speculation that it's a dead star, or some type of gas giant. Due to the delicate nature of electromagnetism in the solar system,...
¿Que?

I do not think that means what you think that means.  Could you clarify?

Quote
...I would postulate that even a minor adjustment in its 3600 year orbit would cause adverse effects one way or the other. Now what I'm getting at here is the concept of climate change, and dark matter as well.
As a chaotic system, anything can happen, eventually, but nothing is likely in less than a full orbit's-worth of time, let alone in the immediately imminent future.

Climate change* relates to Earth's journey through the solar system, not astrological issues.

(*  - Outside of local atmospheric changes, which are unaffected by the positions of any other planet not actually making contact.)

Dark Matter is something else, also.

Quote
But, before I go on further about this, who is disdainful of the idea that 'planet x' presents a problem? I'd rather know that now then continue in discussing it just to have my argument thrown out the window

Consider me officially disdainful of this. But I'd like to hear where you're actually coming from before I vo too far in deciding where I think your position actually is.

Interesting take on the issue not done particularly well, but at least on the right side of 'crazy'. Not my kind of paper, but Stopped Clocks, and all that...

Also useful as references?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibiru_cataclysm
https://xkcd.com/1633/
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Strife26

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2107 on: December 08, 2016, 12:09:58 pm »

While there are signs that a larger planet a long distance away might exist (based on the movement of certain Kuiper Belt objects such as the dwarf planet Sedna there could be a mars-sized object out around 53 AU or a neptune-sized one out around 1500 AU), the effects of such a planet on us are extremely, extremely tiny, to the point of being basically unnoticeable. No blaming climate change or anything even close to being similar in scale on any distant planet.

(As a further note, analysis of mid-infrared observations with the WISE telescope have ruled out the possibility of a Saturn-sized object (95 Earth masses) out to 10,000 AU, and a Jupiter-sized or larger object out to 26,000 AU. If there is something out there then it's either small, meaning no oldsters, or very far away).

I think that you're discounting the possibility that it's a hostile, encroaching planetoid bent on our destruction.
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Strife26

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2108 on: December 08, 2016, 12:20:54 pm »

I don't know, but it's probably best to stock up on flamethrower fuel now. It's important to note that the series starts as science fiction, not as fantasy.
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x2yzh9

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2109 on: December 08, 2016, 01:14:54 pm »

So there's a lot of stuff about planet x on the Web now, at least now that I'm looking for it. There's speculation that it's a dead star, or some type of gas giant. Due to the delicate nature of electromagnetism in the solar system,...
¿Que?

I do not think that means what you think that means.  Could you clarify?

Quote
...I would postulate that even a minor adjustment in its 3600 year orbit would cause adverse effects one way or the other. Now what I'm getting at here is the concept of climate change, and dark matter as well.
As a chaotic system, anything can happen, eventually, but nothing is likely in less than a full orbit's-worth of time, let alone in the immediately imminent future.

Climate change* relates to Earth's journey through the solar system, not astrological issues.

(*  - Outside of local atmospheric changes, which are unaffected by the positions of any other planet not actually making contact.)

Dark Matter is something else, also.

Quote
But, before I go on further about this, who is disdainful of the idea that 'planet x' presents a problem? I'd rather know that now then continue in discussing it just to have my argument thrown out the window

Consider me officially disdainful of this. But I'd like to hear where you're actually coming from before I vo too far in deciding where I think your position actually is.
To clarify...
My position is that any planet in the solar system, or in the universe for that fact, has the possibility of holding an EM Field around it. Such as the sun, any number of the planets in our solar system;however weak or strong they may be.

This, in turn, leads to langrange points-One's that Elon Musk is planning on using for the interplanetary transport system.

So, I guess I could put it like this. If a hypothetical planet x exists, does it have an EM field, how strong or weak is it, and what effect could it's orbital cycle have on the planets in our solar system? With relativity in mind(not the theory-actually just the word relativity itself).

On the other hand Ispil, I don't completely blame this 'planet x' for climate change. Heck to the no. However, I think it could, or could not be a contributing(However large or small) factor to how our planets cycles are arranged, with regards and respect to the fact that climate change is while a natural cycle we are speeding it up 10 times for every degree celsius we get past due to pollution.

edit: I am an open minded individual so feel free to debate my points, or ask questions, etc.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2110 on: December 08, 2016, 01:26:11 pm »

I'm terrified to ask, but what are you defining electromagnetism as here?
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x2yzh9

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2111 on: December 08, 2016, 01:36:42 pm »

I'm terrified to ask, but what are you defining electromagnetism as here?
my definition of electromagnetism is still the same basic definition that we have an electromagnetic sphere, but that being something as much of a basic force in the universe as gravity, or dark matter.

Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2112 on: December 08, 2016, 02:20:19 pm »

Magnetic field, you mean? Internalised magnetohydrodynamics causing significant effects at interplanetary distances?

Lagrange Points are gravitational. Magnetic interactions really don't come into it. EM-based 'langrangians' would seem to require monopoles (or significant prior electrical charging/discharging from the mass concerned), if I get your meaning, and I think something connected to synchrotron radiation might make even that impossible (certainly massively improable).

(Lagrange points also aren't useful in space travel, per se, only really as destinations (and embarkation points, thus stop-overs too, but with the caveat that it doesn't save you time or energy to stop off and then get back up to speed on the way to somewhere else) . AIUI, that's what Elon's interested in them for.)

Dark matter is hypothesised to only interact with gravity and possibly the weak force, but is called 'dark' as it doesn't interact with electromagnetism like baryonic matter does. I don't think you're talking about WIMPs (Weakly Interacting Massive Particles).  Possibly you're half remembering something about MACHOs (MAssive Compact Halo Objects), which are so far (at theoretical upper limit) thought to account for maybe 20% of the missing mass of the universe, in the form of otherwise standard-matter cold supergiant planets/brown dwarves, mostly 'rogue', one of which Planet X might be apart from not currently being rogue. But we're still in hypothetical territory, not theoretical, anyway.

Sounds like you're working on Bronson Alpha/Bellus fictions, or an nuanced offshoot of this meme.  But care to share a link so that I can be corrected?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 02:29:51 pm by Starver »
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i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2113 on: December 08, 2016, 02:51:36 pm »

My position is that any planet in the solar system, or in the universe for that fact, has the possibility of holding an EM Field around it. Such as the sun, any number of the planets in our solar system;however weak or strong they may be.

This, in turn, leads to langrange points-One's that Elon Musk is planning on using for the interplanetary transport system.
I'm not quite sure that you understand what a Lagrange point is, because it has absolutely nothing to do with electromagnetism and everything to do with gravity (which, as of this writing, we still have no real conclusively proved way to connect the two yet). To understand Lagrange points the first thing that you have to understand is that normally the speed an object in orbit is directly linked to it's orbital distance. This is because (and I'm going to steal some graphics from xkcd right now), space is not like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
but instead is like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
(To get a grasp of how fast we have to move even in a low orbit in space, if you stood at the edge of a football field and fired a rifle bullet towards the other end zone at the same time the ISS passed right over you it would have crossed the whole field before the bullet even made it 10 yards). Because of this you can't ever be in the same orbit as something unless you have the same speed, and any attempts to "catch up" to something would just result in your altitude moving you into a higher orbit, which actually slows you down due to some weirdness which is the second thing that you need to know; that when you are in orbit a "lower" altitude rotates you around the object you are orbiting faster than a "higher" one (think back to if you ever spun around in a chair as a kid and pulled your arms/legs in to speed up and then stretched them out to slow down; same physical concept applies here [if you haven't done it before then get yourself a spinny chair and do it now, I won't judge you]). As such in space if you want to "catch up" to something in the same orbit as you the actual process involves first slowing down (thus dropping to a lower orbit that lets you move "faster" around the planet than the target does) and then burning to speed up (thus moving you back to your original altitude to intercept). It's backwards seeming and weird, but that's the way it works.

Now what Lagrange points are are special exceptions that happen when you complicate the problem a little bit from our original assumption. Previously everything I've been saying just assumes you are orbiting around one single body, but in the real world you're actually largely affected by two; the planet you are orbiting directly (say Earth), and the bigger orbit around the Sun. Now let's say I want to build a space station somewhere between the Earth and the Sun so I can fill up my rocket ships there. Obviously i can't keep the station perfectly still without it moving through space, without some speed to give it an orbit around the sun it'll get sucked in! But that's not all, we have a second problem as well. Remember that objects in "lower" orbits move around the object they are orbiting faster than objects in higher orbits? If I just build my spaceport at a lower orbit around the Sun than Earth is at it will therefore quickly "pass" us in orbit around the sun and take off on it's own, rendering it fairly useless if I want to be able to reliably fill up my spaceships there. If I put the spaceport at one of the 5 "Lagrange points" though, then something nice happens; the gravitational forces from the bigger object (the sun) and those from the smaller object (the earth), work against (or with) each other a little bit to change the effective altitude of my orbit, thus causing a change in the "speed" of the orbit at that point to perfectly match that of the smaller object. In other words, if I put my spaceport at any of the Sun-Earth Lagrange points, then it ends up having an orbital time around the sun of 1 year, which is exactly the same as the earth's! This means that we can always be sure that our spaceport is only a short distance away from the earth where we need it to be so we can refuel our spaceships, without it wandering off on it's own due to taking a different amount of time to rotate around the sun than the earth does.

As you can see, this doesn't have anything at all to do with the electromagnetic force at all (barring some sort unified field theory that we haven't gotten around to showing good evidence for yet that unifies them at a low level), and is wholly confined to the forces of gravity, velocity, and momentum.
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x2yzh9

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #2114 on: December 08, 2016, 03:12:38 pm »

Magnetic field, you mean? Internalised magnetohydrodynamics causing significant effects at interplanetary distances?[snip]
.
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.
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Sounds like you're working on Bronson Alpha/Bellus fictions, or an nuanced offshoot of this meme.  But care to share a link so that I can be corrected?
Yes, you hit the nail on the hammer(thank you), I am talking about internalised magnetohydrodynamics causing such effects. Keep in mind I still havn't gone to college or any college physics
classes yet, I'm struggling at the moment but at least I understand these conceptual forces, I just can't label them properly. The reason I think that works if because of not yet proven unified field theory. Seems to me that a lot of my life growing up I was indeed constantly studying things, and conversing about them with the intellectuals I have in my family related to space stuff, but I've never put any critical thinking into it, even though it's my dream profession to become a physicist of some sort.


As far as those fictions, I know what your talking about. However, my memory may not be suited well, but I distinctly remember there being a huge talk about the andromeda galaxy passing through ours a couple years ago. However, wikipedia lists at 4.5 billion years until that happens, which I found..coincidentally the same approximate time it took the very early earth to form, and extends as far as today approximately which COULD(just a postulation here) do with what we are experiencing;in addition to unified field theory. https://muchadoaboutclimate.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/4-5-billion-years-of-the-earths-temperature/

However, correlation does not equal causation, and from these last two posts I have learned a lot from you guys. Thank you, and i2amroy; My apologies, but I couldn't seem to find a question or anything to answer in there, but I did read it and it has enlightened in those aspects.
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