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Author Topic: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"  (Read 91866 times)

Baffler

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #120 on: January 08, 2014, 09:30:45 pm »

Or enlighten the goblins to make for a more interesting late game.
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Zanthra

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #121 on: January 08, 2014, 09:35:33 pm »

Has anyone checked to see if the absolute Z-Level you land on makes any difference?  If you build your shaft 50 Z levels down from another one, does it make any difference?
50z levels would create too much enlightenment in too sort timespan and the enlightend would explode.

I was thinking starting on Z-Level 50 and ending on Z-Level 52 as opposed to starting Z-Level 100 and ending Z-Level 50.  I was trying to think of possible places that the game could be getting these outrageous XP numbers from.

What is the standard amount of XP gain for parrying or blocking?

PS: Does anyone know how the game tracks how fast a dwarf is falling (or how high he has fallen from)?  Is there some sort of speed variable, or does it store the starting Z-Level somewhere?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 09:39:11 pm by Zanthra »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #122 on: January 08, 2014, 11:26:50 pm »

...
What is the standard amount of XP gain for parrying or blocking?

PS: Does anyone know how the game tracks how fast a dwarf is falling (or how high he has fallen from)?  Is there some sort of speed variable, or does it store the starting Z-Level somewhere?

30?

"New" parabolic projectiles, such as minecarts or creatures, store 3D positions and velocities at finer-than-one-tile levels of detail.

The old projectile system kept track of the start and end points.

I don't think it uses the falling velocity to directly calculate the massive xp, especially since falling 4 z-levels doesn't give xp.

HmH

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #123 on: January 10, 2014, 02:14:50 pm »

Did some more tests with that bug to determine whether there is a hard level cap in DF. Encountered two new bugs that are probably related to the original one.


Summary:
1) Experience is capped at level 3000(Legendary+2985, X/300500 in Adventure Mode). Gaining experience beyond that level does not yield any significant benefits.

2) In case of extreme(500 or something like that) level differences between the weapon skills of two fighting parties, the party with lower weapon skill level receives thousands of XP every time they are hit by the more experienced party; that skill increase does not seem to increase their attributes.
This effect is possible to replicate in Adventure Mode: the human vampire adventurer mentioned above was able to raise bandits to Legendary levels in just a few hits. Punching and biting them instead did not cause XP gain, which means that this effect does not depend solely on the Fighter skill.

3) Performing attacks against a shield-wielding enemy with enormously high Shield User skill will grant the attacker thousands of experience points per hit, even when their attacks are blocked. Unlike the Shaft of Enlightenment, this can be used to raise Striker, Biter, Kicker, Wrestler, and Misc. Object User skills. It does not apply to ranged combat, however. XP gained from this effect does not increase one's attributes.
If you intend to exploit this bug in adventure mode, you are heavily advised to put armor on before you go against such a foe: anyone trained at the Shaft has an extremely high Fighter skill, which allows them to bypass your(comparatively low) Shield User skill with no effort whatsoever.
One of the ways to exploit it in Fortress Mode would be to train one of your dwarves in a Shaft of Enlightenment, then make sure they are sentenced to a beating. They would block every hit landed on them, giving the sheriff thousands of XP per hit; even with a mere 10 punches, the sheriff would become a Legendary Striker by the time they're done "punishing" the offender. UPD: Tested this, didn't work: the offender's Shield User skill wasn't even used; apparently, you can't block justice itself. The sheriff has beaten the "criminal" to death and walked away with no significant skill gain.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:31:26 am by HmH »
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YvAd

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #124 on: January 10, 2014, 04:23:30 pm »

That's really good info to have. Thank you, kind sir!
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Mr S

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #125 on: January 10, 2014, 04:37:05 pm »

What about somebody sparring with a squad mate who has been "enlightened"?  Do they gain thousands of XP per strike/block to/from the mega-legendary?  If this is so, you'd only need to "enlighten" a handful of dwarfs to minimize spine breaking, then use them as sparring partners for other squads.
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HmH

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #126 on: January 10, 2014, 04:45:32 pm »

What about somebody sparring with a squad mate who has been "enlightened"?  Do they gain thousands of XP per strike/block to/from the mega-legendary?  If this is so, you'd only need to "enlighten" a handful of dwarfs to minimize spine breaking, then use them as sparring partners for other squads.
They gain thousands of XP when sparring, yes, but that isn't nearly as useful as it sounds because there is no attribute gain. Because of that, danger rooms are a better choice than this particular bug. The only situation where sparring-practice-with-an-Enlightened could be a better choice is if you're looking for a quick way to train your wrestlers and crutch-fighters.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 04:50:31 pm by HmH »
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wierd

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #127 on: January 10, 2014, 05:26:42 pm »

If you had them develop the skill set first, (high exp) through training with the "enlightened master", before putting them in the danger room hall of trials, then they should theoretically develop the attributes, while effortlessly parrying and dodgeing the enemy attacks.

You could pit 1 sparring trained legendary in a pit with 20 captured (but unarmed) goblins, and walk away.
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Ruhn

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #128 on: January 10, 2014, 05:45:02 pm »

This is very helpful, HmH.  If I understand the data correctly this has relevance to anti-exploit forts also.
My conclusion is that fresh recruits benefit a lot from sparring with legendary warriors.  Which means making the best fighters the squad leaders is actually part of the game mechanics and is better than making a squad of all recruits.

HmH

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #129 on: January 10, 2014, 10:15:14 pm »

This is very helpful, HmH.  If I understand the data correctly this has relevance to anti-exploit forts also.
My conclusion is that fresh recruits benefit a lot from sparring with legendary warriors.  Which means making the best fighters the squad leaders is actually part of the game mechanics and is better than making a squad of all recruits.
Not just legendary warriors: ridiculously legendary warriors, level 500 skill or so. I didn't test it, but I'm pretty sure this bug does not apply to a mere level 15 skill.

itg

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #130 on: January 10, 2014, 11:00:49 pm »

This is very helpful, HmH.  If I understand the data correctly this has relevance to anti-exploit forts also.
My conclusion is that fresh recruits benefit a lot from sparring with legendary warriors.  Which means making the best fighters the squad leaders is actually part of the game mechanics and is better than making a squad of all recruits.
Not just legendary warriors: ridiculously legendary warriors, level 500 skill or so. I didn't test it, but I'm pretty sure this bug does not apply to a mere level 15 skill.

I'm pretty sure his (reasonable) assumption was your experiment indicates XP gain is proportional to the skill of the opponent. That would mean it's a good idea to have your recruits sparring with your best soldiers, even if you don't want to use exploity supersoldiers.

wierd

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #131 on: January 10, 2014, 11:21:41 pm »

That's what I thought as well.

That makes a great deal of sense then, that "glitch trained omega soldiers" training with greenhorns will produce insane xp gains in the greenhorns.

If you approach it from the perspective that a fixed percentage increase per level difference, intended to apply when Urist McTrainer and Urist McGreenhorn are only apart by maybe 5 levels, then to have a rate improvement worth including, the rate needs to be kinda high.

Extrapolating that out into never never land reveals the impact of using an exponential curve.

10% of 5000xp, is 500xp.

10% of 50xp is 5xp.

Both are 10%.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2014, 11:27:40 pm »

That's what I thought as well.

That makes a great deal of sense then, that "glitch trained omega soldiers" training with greenhorns will produce insane xp gains in the greenhorns.

If you approach it from the perspective that a fixed percentage increase per level difference, intended to apply when Urist McTrainer and Urist McGreenhorn are only apart by maybe 5 levels, then to have a rate improvement worth including, the rate needs to be kinda high.

Extrapolating that out into never never land reveals the impact of using an exponential curve.

10% of 5000xp, is 500xp.

10% of 50xp is 5xp.

Both are 10%.

I'm sorry, but the math nazi in me regrets to inform you that that isn't an exponential curve. The equation is y=.1x. It's linear.
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wierd

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2014, 11:33:04 pm »

Yeah.. now I think about it.

I blame getting 1hr sleep last night.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2014, 11:35:36 pm »

I suppose I also could have said "these aren't the curves you're looking for."
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