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Author Topic: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"  (Read 84026 times)

wierd

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #135 on: January 10, 2014, 11:48:00 pm »

I was looking at it while less than half awake, in these terms:

Cumulative score from training sessions originating with level 0 greenhorn with maximum level 5000 trainer, will add exponentially diminishing scores to the trainee, as the differences between scores approaches zero.

Eg, the sum added is the X% of the difference, and since the master has capped, he can't improve from the lesson. As such, the first training session will add "retardedly insane" experience to greenhorn eqivalent to 10% of the difference between the scores. (Difference from 0 to 5000 is 5000. 10% of 5000 is 500. Added score is 500.)

On the next itiration, the difference will be 4500 xp, and so the added score will be 450.

This curve resembles an exponential one, because it compounds the bonus value, albeit in the negative growth direction.  Experience bonus approaches 0, as difference between scores approaches 0.

Again, I am basically a walking zombie right now, from chronic lack of sleep. (Mandatory OT + insane-yowling-heat-addled-cat)x5days = "please kill me now."

I was trying, and failed miserably, to point out that a function like this won't misbehave as long as the differences between the scores of the trainer and the trainee are low, because the bonus awarded will be low.

If the implied "normal" situation is for the trainer to not be a heroic avatar of armok himself, but instead just a hardened drill instructor, then the bonus score from the training for a greenhorn will be pleasantly nice, but not excessive, and will fall off to 0 as the greenhorn reaches the same level as the instructor.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 11:56:20 pm by wierd »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #136 on: January 11, 2014, 12:03:13 am »

... the party with lower weapon skill level receives thousands of XP every time they are hit by the more experienced party; that skill increase does not seem to increase their attributes....

Thanks for this! It helped me figure out the bug. My earlier statements with regards to this not being related to the spears or velocity aren't quite accurate. No "parrying the earth" going on here. Sorry about the derping around!

Code: [Select]
fall vel f-50k bug xp xp/bug
1z 53900 3.9 3900 39200 0
2z 63700 13.7 13700 6128 148250 24.19223238
3z 78400 28.4 28400 22056 546440 24.77511788
4z 88200 38.2 38200 54520 0
5z 93100 43.1 43100 37984 0
6z 102900 52.9 52900 4912 0
7z 107800 57.8 57800 53912 0
8z 117600 67.6 67600 20840 516044 24.7621881

When a creature falls 3 z-levels, it's z-velocity just before impact is 78400. The velocity of the "ground cube" weapon is calculated at (78400-50000)/1000=28. However the velocity used for the spears is:

((78400-50000)*10)%(2^16)+200=22056

In MS Excel this is: MOD((V-50000)*10,2^16)+200. The modulo is used because the game plucks a WORD size number from a DWORD number in memory. What's more, the number is not only used to give the spears strange velocities and momentums, but it also is used to find the "effective level" and "accuracy" of the attack (through some code that I don't yet understand). The ridiculously fast "high level" spear attacks grant XP to the survivors of a hit.

Also interesting is that the game creates the spear attacks by generating "virtual projectiles" and then hitting the creature with them. Weapon traps also do this, but they just use a velocity of 200 and don't try to add the creature's speed. 200 is still much faster than any person's swing. The use of virtual projectiles will increment df.global.proj_next_id every time a trap is activated.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 12:06:20 am by Urist Da Vinci »
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wierd

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #137 on: January 11, 2014, 12:13:50 am »

So, rather than blocking the earth, the mental analogy would be that the spear is NOT stationary, but shoots up out of the ground ballistically, and collides with the falling dwarf with high energy?

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Zanthra

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #138 on: January 11, 2014, 01:05:49 am »

I think you could say that in the dwarven version of relativity, things that move quickly get (high level)-shifted, instead of redshifted.  So from the dwarves' point of view, the spikes are very experienced, and the momentary chance to fight them imparts some of that wisdom on the dwarf that remains through the sudden deceleration.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 01:07:51 am by Zanthra »
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Duuvian

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #139 on: January 11, 2014, 03:05:45 am »

I made this a long time ago, but this seems an appropriate place to post it again.

Spoiler: Large image (click to show/hide)
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FINISHED original composition:
https://app.box.com/s/jq526ppvri67astrc23bwvgrkxaicedj

Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit

HmH

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #140 on: January 11, 2014, 03:10:58 am »

So, rather than blocking the earth, the mental analogy would be that the spear is NOT stationary, but shoots up out of the ground ballistically, and collides with the falling dwarf with high energy?

And if the dwarf falls 4-7 z-levels, the spears move so fast that they never hit him, which looks like some kind of a perverse Zeno's paradox scenario. Dwarven relativity is weird.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 05:20:46 am by HmH »
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coldmonkey

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #141 on: January 11, 2014, 07:42:37 am »

What if the lucky falling creature in fact goes through a loophole in reality and physics, and experiences (in his mind only) all the possible outcomes for dodging, being hit by, blocking, and parrying, the spear, that all the similar the parallel multiverses allows? He's momentarily synchronized mentally with all the identical and almost identical situations in alternate realities, I mean. That would explain why his physical attributes don't change, it's just insane amounts of learning and experience within the space of very little time.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 09:05:02 am by coldmonkey »
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I found a human city named Sleevevirgins. It was easily the biggest city in the world, so clearly I wasn't the first person to come inside the city's walls.

Ruhn

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #142 on: January 11, 2014, 11:30:06 am »

What if the lucky falling creature in fact goes through a loophole in reality and physics, and experiences (in his mind only) all the possible outcomes for dodging, being hit by, blocking, and parrying, the spear, that all the similar the parallel multiverses allows? He's momentarily synchronized mentally with all the identical and almost identical situations in alternate realities, I mean. That would explain why his physical attributes don't change, it's just insane amounts of learning and experience within the space of very little time.
That works for me.

HmH

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #143 on: January 12, 2014, 05:19:59 am »

When a creature falls 3 z-levels, it's z-velocity just before impact is 78400. The velocity of the "ground cube" weapon is calculated at (78400-50000)/1000=28. However the velocity used for the spears is:

((78400-50000)*10)%(2^16)+200=22056
Wait, there's something off with the first formula. You're taking the creature's velocity, not momentum, then divide it by 1000? 1000 is some value that's proportional to the object's mass, right? Then that formula doesn't give us insight into the ground cube's velocity.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 05:26:18 am by HmH »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #144 on: January 12, 2014, 02:11:38 pm »

When a creature falls 3 z-levels, it's z-velocity just before impact is 78400. The velocity of the "ground cube" weapon is calculated at (78400-50000)/1000=28. However the velocity used for the spears is:

((78400-50000)*10)%(2^16)+200=22056
Wait, there's something off with the first formula. You're taking the creature's velocity, not momentum, then divide it by 1000? 1000 is some value that's proportional to the object's mass, right? Then that formula doesn't give us insight into the ground cube's velocity.

The ground cube's momentum is influenced by it's velocity and weight:

The ground cube's weight is influenced by it's density and it's size (1/10 the size of the falling creature)
The ground cube's velocity is influenced by the falling creature's velocity (subtract 50000 and then divide by 1000)
Note normal steel battle axe swings have a velocity of around 12.

Falling short distances is on par with melee attacks.
Weapon traps are currently 1 order of magnitude faster than melee attacks.
Default crossbows/bows are currently 2 orders of magnitude faster than melee attacks.
Falling on upright spears is something like 3+ orders of magnitude faster.

HmH

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #145 on: January 12, 2014, 06:51:53 pm »

The ground cube's velocity is influenced by the falling creature's velocity (subtract 50000 and then divide by 1000)
Yeah, here's what I don't get: what is dividing the velocity by 1000 supposed to do?

kyle902

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #146 on: January 13, 2014, 04:46:34 pm »

Why do we assume that we can't use both this AND danger rooms to make the perfect dwarf?

Use the Danger room to increase attributes and as a right of passage use the spear fall to massively increase their already legendary weapons skill.


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coldmonkey

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #147 on: January 13, 2014, 05:20:07 pm »

Why do we assume that we can't use both this AND danger rooms to make the perfect dwarf?

Use the Danger room to increase attributes and as a right of passage use the spear fall to massively increase their already legendary weapons skill.
Because the level of skill they end up with through the Shaft makes attribute gain more or less pointless. Though I guess endurance and willpower may still be useful when trying to chip a Bronze Colossus to death with <steel tier weapon.
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I found a human city named Sleevevirgins. It was easily the biggest city in the world, so clearly I wasn't the first person to come inside the city's walls.

MoloMowChow

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #148 on: January 13, 2014, 05:25:29 pm »

Well, as the Dwarves always say, "Strike the Earth!"
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Loci

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Re: Upright spear glitch aka "Shaft of Enlightenment"
« Reply #149 on: January 13, 2014, 07:21:41 pm »

Weapon traps are currently 1 order of magnitude faster than melee attacks.
Default crossbows/bows are currently 2 orders of magnitude faster than melee attacks.
Falling on upright spears is something like 3+ orders of magnitude faster.

So we could try a slightly less exploity arrangement: station the trainee on a weapon trap (constructed with training swords, or something equally worthless, and possibly a high-quality mechanism) and cause a cave-in nearby to knock the trainee unconscious. That should provide experience roughly equivalent to 100 standard melee attacks.

Using a weapon trap filled with crossbows could theoretically provide much more experience, but at increased risk since even wooden bolts can prove deadly. Surviving trainees might gain experience roughly equivalent to 1000 standard melee attacks.

One could also replace the cave-in with a web-spewing beastie to automate the training.
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