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Author Topic: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance  (Read 22143 times)

Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2014, 11:55:30 pm »

torches were theoretical devices I made up, in preparation of warmist rendermax, but r3 did not support items. Even r4 has some issues, I havent gotten them to work. they were used in reactions, but not any active ones that players could use.
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Gamerlord

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #106 on: January 05, 2014, 02:37:06 am »

Listing the bugs I find here.

*running 'Combine pistol+dagger to corsair arms' in the Freelancers Guild takes no items and the resulting item has no material.

Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #107 on: January 05, 2014, 03:59:52 am »

Listing the bugs I find here.

*running 'Combine pistol+dagger to corsair arms' in the Freelancers Guild takes no items and the resulting item has no material.

D'oh! I know exactly why that's occurring (I was missing an argument in my reagents), and it's now fixed!

Because it's a reaction-only change, you *should* be able to update your saves by copying over the reaction_orcfort.txt file. :)

Many thanks!

~ T
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fasquardon

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2014, 06:16:07 am »

I like your take on the flavour!  If you ever fancy helping with manual writing/copyediting, then let me know. :)

Yes, I can definitely help with this.  Here is my edit of the sample you posted:

Quote
Orcish Honour and Rituals

Taiga Orcs have a strong sense of clan honour, and true honour is only earned in combat against powerful foes. Orcs can and will butcher their enemies, and while the meat can provide a feast in victory celebrations, Taiga Orcs will collect the scalps of their greatest foes to display the honour of their clan. The scalps of humans, dwarves, elves, and drow are particularly prized.

Scalps will be automatically preserved at the tannery, and have multiple uses in your camp. Ten preserved scalps and a bolt of cloth can be sewn into a standard of honour. No clan of Taiga Orcs will fail to display their honour in the Caravanserai so guests of the clan can see that the clan is worth its salt. Particularly honoured foes will have their scalps hung in the Warrior's Meadhall, where they will be able to listen to the warriors tell the stories of their last battle and may receive offerings of mead, which they may reward by granting the warrior a portion of their strength and skill.

A great clan may write one or more codexes, either on the art of battle or the art of magic. The construction of a codex is a great ritual and honour, and incoprorates the scalps of great enemies into the covers, so the spirits of the clan's enemies may guard the secrets contained within.  Scalps are also used in the initation of great warriors into socieities, and in the construction of fearsome battle masks.

While Taiga Orc warriors value the scalps of their great enemies, the clan Dreamwalkers deal directly with the souls of their fallen foes. Dreamwalkers aid the souls on their journey to the fields of the fallen, where they fight and drink for all eternity with other worthy warriors. As part of this ritual, the Dreamwalker weaves a talisman.  These talismans are central in the Dreamwalkers' rituals as they are a sign of a Dreamwalker's honour. Dreamwalkers then use these in their dealings with the spirits to prove that they are worthy of the spirit's attention.  It is said they also allow them to explore the dreams and memories of the soul that was guided and there have been rumours of dreamwalkers who have been able to design powerful workshops and libraries which they have only seen in their dreams.

What I went for here was to move the Orcs away from Warlocks in terms of flavour, so Warlocks gain power from consuming souls, Orcs have what they see as a more positive relationship with souls (obviously an Elf might not find the Orcish paradise so pleasant, but there you go, the Orcs think they are doing their enemies a favour) and it is the honour they gain from sending the souls on to the "right" afterlife that makes the spirits take them seriously.

With the scalps, I made them a bit like the Celtic brain-balls (a concrete ball made out of lime and the brains of the slain enemy that the Celts used as trophies) so that they are not only a way of showing off a warrior's strength, but by showing proper hospitality to the trophies, a positive relationship is formed between the clan's warriors and their fallen enemies.

Feel free to tweak this as you like and get rid of any ideas you aren't keen on.

fasquardon
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2014, 07:06:37 am »

I like this more distinct difference between abusing souls and symbiotic relationship. :)

Quote
you *should* be able to update your saves by copying over the reaction_orcfort.txt file.
Yes, this is fine. :)

EDIT: Suggestion: Add actual smoke to buildings like the blacksmoke furnace. I just learned something new today: You can make cold, temporary items, which create smoke. By making their ignite-point below their fixed temp, and their cold/heatdam point a few points differently from the fixed temp, you can make smoke in furnaces. :)

I did a bit of science, here: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=134395.msg4886997#msg4886997

You can give this a try, as a test, if you like:
Code: [Select]
[INORGANIC:BLACKSMOKE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:test me stuff that makes smoke][DISPLAY_COLOR:0:0:0][TILE:199]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:0]
[MAT_FIXED_TEMP:10145]
[HEATDAM_POINT:10100]
[IGNITE_POINT:100]

It harmless and shouldnt start fires (not even on grass or anything like that), but it should last about 1 ingame week, and make smoke, which affects orcs around it with "choked on smoke recently". Makes sense to build furnaces aboveground or with ventilation, and a bit away from major traffic areas.

What do you think? :)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 08:40:28 am by Meph »
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2014, 11:01:33 pm »

What I went for here was to move the Orcs away from Warlocks in terms of flavour, so Warlocks gain power from consuming souls, Orcs have what they see as a more positive relationship with souls (obviously an Elf might not find the Orcish paradise so pleasant, but there you go, the Orcs think they are doing their enemies a favour) and it is the honour they gain from sending the souls on to the "right" afterlife that makes the spirits take them seriously.

I really like this. Your your copy of the text is now in the manual.

Quote
With the scalps, I made them a bit like the Celtic brain-balls (a concrete ball made out of lime and the brains of the slain enemy that the Celts used as trophies) so that they are not only a way of showing off a warrior's strength, but by showing proper hospitality to the trophies, a positive relationship is formed between the clan's warriors and their fallen enemies.

And I also really love this! I didn't even know about brain-balls as a trophy.

I'm totally going to use these themes in my Let's Play thread that I'll be posting soon.  If you want an orc named in your honour, do let me know. :)

~ T
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #111 on: January 06, 2014, 11:02:16 pm »

I've been doing some of my own playtesting, and I'm considering the following:

* All 'major' races (the ones you can toggle with the GUI) will drop scalps.
* Reduce all caravanserai requirements to a single banner of honour
* Remove the ability to purchase orichalcum at the shadowbroker
* Orichalcum (bloodsteel+iron+silver) and deep bronze (bronze+gold+mithril) can be made at the ancient foundry (unlocked by dreamwalking), but now requires a soul gem in its construction
* Reduce the orichalcum and deep bronze output at the ancient foundry from 3 bars to 1.
* Change the formation of ironbone and bloodsteel at the boneyard to use the 'bonecarving' labour, since everything else there uses bonecarving. (Alternatively, these reactions could be moved to a more thematic workshop. It *could* be the totem pole, if we change the totem pole requirement to be wood + totem, as opposed to the current ironbone.)

This makes it easier to get the trade buildings up, which is balanced by the shadowbroker no longer selling orichalcum. It makes orichalcum and deep bronze slower to produce once the ancient foundry is up.

Any feedback and thoughts appreciated. :)

~ T
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #112 on: January 06, 2014, 11:17:42 pm »

EDIT: Suggestion: Add actual smoke to buildings like the blacksmoke furnace. I just learned something new today: You can make cold, temporary items, which create smoke. By making their ignite-point below their fixed temp, and their cold/heatdam point a few points differently from the fixed temp, you can make smoke in furnaces. :)

Oh my! I've always wanted this. I felt that having to build ventilation should be a consideration for heavy-industry outposts. And given the name of the blacksmoke furnace, it certainly feels it should do the smoking thing. :)

I should do some testing on how smoke spreads. I know it will cross z-levels, but I don't know if has a natural tendency to go upwards (if it does, that's perfect).  Conveniently, I have a fire in my Let's Play fortress right now, so I have an opportunity to observe and experiment. :)

~ T
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shadowclasper

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2014, 03:52:33 pm »

is there a way to make black powder weapons produce a plume of smoke when they're fired? Blackpowder weapons could be given an even bigger boost to power when every time they were fired they produced an unhappy thought.

edit: I don't suppose a transformation could happen?

You have a blackpowder weapon that requires two things to shoot? the bullet and the charge? The charge turns into an 'expended' charge which has a burn point far below it's set temperature, resulting in a brief puff of smoke from the weapon as the bullet is fired?

edit2: Also, for Raid Ruins. If you raid ruins it should result in demons invading, or perhaps a megabeast, or even Warlocks (once they're fully implemented) because you disrupted their experiments.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 04:05:42 pm by shadowclasper »
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2014, 11:09:22 pm »

is there a way to make black powder weapons produce a plume of smoke when they're fired? Blackpowder weapons could be given an even bigger boost to power when every time they were fired they produced an unhappy thought.

edit: I don't suppose a transformation could happen?

I don't know a way of doing this when weapons are fired. There *are* effects which can take place when ammo gets lodged in a wound, and orcs already have fire and acid arrows which can be manufactured. I'm not even sure that DFHack has a hook for weapon firing.

Quote
edit2: Also, for Raid Ruins. If you raid ruins it should result in demons invading, or perhaps a megabeast, or even Warlocks (once they're fully implemented) because you disrupted their experiments.

I've actually disabled raids on ruins for now. I did have them briefly triggering automaton raids, but the problem is that automatons often seem to die out during worldgen for me, and I seem to recall that the 'force siege' functionality doesn't actually result in a siege unless you've met the siege requirements (exports, population, etc). So a fledgling camp could raid ruins continuously and be swimming in high-end metals. Personally I'd love to restrict raids to civs which are neighbours and can potentially siege you back. That *might* be possible with some DFHack magic and a 'assess nearby targets' reaction. We could scan memory to see what can reach you, test those to see if they can siege you, and generates a 'map to dwarven outpost', 'map to elven forests', 'map to human city' style objects as a result (and which are required and preserved for the raids themselves). As your fortress gets larger, it's worth scouting out new targets again; but the end result is that you can't attack an enemy unless they're able to attack you back. :)

Triggering a megabeast attack is an option, and is probably what we'll do as part of milestone 2. I haven't investigated to see what restrictions DF places on when megabeasts can arrive.

~ T
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shadowclasper

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #115 on: January 08, 2014, 01:05:59 am »

is there a way to make black powder weapons produce a plume of smoke when they're fired? Blackpowder weapons could be given an even bigger boost to power when every time they were fired they produced an unhappy thought.

edit: I don't suppose a transformation could happen?

I don't know a way of doing this when weapons are fired. There *are* effects which can take place when ammo gets lodged in a wound, and orcs already have fire and acid arrows which can be manufactured. I'm not even sure that DFHack has a hook for weapon firing.

Quote
edit2: Also, for Raid Ruins. If you raid ruins it should result in demons invading, or perhaps a megabeast, or even Warlocks (once they're fully implemented) because you disrupted their experiments.

I've actually disabled raids on ruins for now. I did have them briefly triggering automaton raids, but the problem is that automatons often seem to die out during worldgen for me, and I seem to recall that the 'force siege' functionality doesn't actually result in a siege unless you've met the siege requirements (exports, population, etc). So a fledgling camp could raid ruins continuously and be swimming in high-end metals. Personally I'd love to restrict raids to civs which are neighbours and can potentially siege you back. That *might* be possible with some DFHack magic and a 'assess nearby targets' reaction. We could scan memory to see what can reach you, test those to see if they can siege you, and generates a 'map to dwarven outpost', 'map to elven forests', 'map to human city' style objects as a result (and which are required and preserved for the raids themselves). As your fortress gets larger, it's worth scouting out new targets again; but the end result is that you can't attack an enemy unless they're able to attack you back. :)

Triggering a megabeast attack is an option, and is probably what we'll do as part of milestone 2. I haven't investigated to see what restrictions DF places on when megabeasts can arrive.

~ T

What if enemies who attack you (ambushes, thieves, caravans, all of those) had a chance to drop maps that could be used for such things?

Also, with things like armies and caravans moving across the world map in the next vanilla update, you could use that to pick up raiding targets right? Set yourself up on something that'd have regular movement of caravans over it and then just loot them for maps?

edit: Also another building that should probably produce tons of smoke is the crematorium. Burning bodies is NOT a fun business and it produces tons of smoke.

edit2: Also, reading through the manual and the fluff on the ancient foundry (which I assume you can only get by raiding ruins). What if raiding ruins caused a war flag to go off with any non-orcish allies? After all! No one wants a return to the great hunt days. Not the goblins, not the bandit humans, not the deep drow, not the ash elves.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 02:43:26 am by shadowclasper »
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fasquardon

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #116 on: January 08, 2014, 07:36:19 am »

I've been doing some of my own playtesting, and I'm considering the following:

* All 'major' races (the ones you can toggle with the GUI) will drop scalps.
* Reduce all caravanserai requirements to a single banner of honour
* Remove the ability to purchase orichalcum at the shadowbroker
* Orichalcum (bloodsteel+iron+silver) and deep bronze (bronze+gold+mithril) can be made at the ancient foundry (unlocked by dreamwalking), but now requires a soul gem in its construction
* Reduce the orichalcum and deep bronze output at the ancient foundry from 3 bars to 1.
* Change the formation of ironbone and bloodsteel at the boneyard to use the 'bonecarving' labour, since everything else there uses bonecarving. (Alternatively, these reactions could be moved to a more thematic workshop. It *could* be the totem pole, if we change the totem pole requirement to be wood + totem, as opposed to the current ironbone.)

This makes it easier to get the trade buildings up, which is balanced by the shadowbroker no longer selling orichalcum. It makes orichalcum and deep bronze slower to produce once the ancient foundry is up.

Any feedback and thoughts appreciated. :)

~ T

I haven't gotten far enough in my own orc test game to test the more advanced stuff yet, but this all sounds pretty good. 

I think the ironbone reaction should be moved to a more thematic workshop, and the skill used to make it remain chemistry or change to a magic skill.

Wouldn't a talisman be a more appropriate build mat for the ancient foundry?  Soul gems seem a bit un-Orcish for building with.

It would be cool if the labour cells needed standards of honour...  Sounds like a very orcish way to motivate immigrants and slaves, and it has always bothered me how cheap the cells were to build.

My test fort is great fun.  I am playing with the latest Orcish rebalance, Phoebus tiles and Phoebus colour.  The Orcish magic has become alot less powerful since I last played the Orcs, which is a good thing, since it is motivating me to get my Uruks in arms and armour.  I seem to be having a problem with dewbeetles not producing honey, but I am not sure if that is a bug or something I am doing wrong. I noticed when my crematoriums started gassing my furnace operators that harder smelting is turned on, when I looked for it in the GUI, I couldn't find the option to turn it off for my next game.

fasquardon

PS. My Orcs are so far doing very nicely with a diet of fish, meat and gathered plants.  No plant farming as of yet, so you would be proud McTeellox.
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #117 on: January 08, 2014, 09:34:21 am »

I think the ironbone reaction should be moved to a more thematic workshop, and the skill used to make it remain chemistry or change to a magic skill.

I agree. Having it at the bonecarver feels odd.  So let's go with the intent of moving it to the totem pole, and changing the pole's construction to be a log and a totem. That also gives newbie dreamwalkers something to do. :)

Quote
Wouldn't a talisman be a more appropriate build mat for the ancient foundry?  Soul gems seem a bit un-Orcish for building with.

Oh, I meant that each *reaction* requires a soul gem. This means you can't just crank out a million bars of orichalcum once you get it set up. The ancient foundry still requires two bars of orichalcum to construct.

Quote
It would be cool if the labour cells needed standards of honour...  Sounds like a very orcish way to motivate immigrants and slaves, and it has always bothered me how cheap the cells were to build.

You mean on top of them requiring an appropriate captive? The goblin and kobold workshops are intended to be relatively easy to unlock; the raids usually succeed, they're cheap to run, and gobs and kobolds never retaliate. The elf/human/drow/dwarf captives should only come from raiding, and each raid only has a 50% chance of success, and a successful raid only has a 25% chain of yielding a captive. That means you're more likely to get a siege (20%) than a captive (12.5%). There's also a tiny chance to get them from gambling at the tavern, but that's a very expensive way to go about things.

I do think the labour cells could do with an overhaul, not least because "turn food into stone/crafts/wood/silk" is really dull. :)

Quote
My test fort is great fun.  I am playing with the latest Orcish rebalance, Phoebus tiles and Phoebus colour.  The Orcish magic has become alot less powerful since I last played the Orcs, which is a good thing, since it is motivating me to get my Uruks in arms and armour.  I seem to be having a problem with dewbeetles not producing honey, but I am not sure if that is a bug or something I am doing wrong. I noticed when my crematoriums started gassing my furnace operators that harder smelting is turned on, when I looked for it in the GUI, I couldn't find the option to turn it off for my next game.

Dewbeetles I haven't touched. I believe you can 'milk' them at the farmers' workshop.

As for the crematorium, that's also from regular Masterwork. I can tell you that YESDUST is the meta-tokens in the raws that determines if smoke is produced, but I haven't looked at the GUI recently to see what the option for it might be, or if that's even somehow been missed.

Quote
PS. My Orcs are so far doing very nicely with a diet of fish, meat and gathered plants.  No plant farming as of yet, so you would be proud McTeellox.

Awesome! Consider me proud. :)

~ T
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2014, 09:53:42 am »

What if enemies who attack you (ambushes, thieves, caravans, all of those) had a chance to drop maps that could be used for such things?

The gotcha is that this may then allow you to attack a race which still doesn't meet the siege requirements that I need for triggering a counter-attack. However I *do* the like the idea of defeated enemies dropping something which may assist with raids. So you'd scout for nearby civs at the drydock, combine that with intelligence you've got from your enemies, and you can execute a more elaborate raid that returns better loot, or has a lower chance of retaliation.

Quote
Also, with things like armies and caravans moving across the world map in the next vanilla update, you could use that to pick up raiding targets right? Set yourself up on something that'd have regular movement of caravans over it and then just loot them for maps?

Alas, I fear it would be quite some time before such information is available via DFHack (if at all), and even then I suspect the rest of the world mostly stops while your fort simulation is active (although I've not actually confirmed this).

Quote
edit: Also another building that should probably produce tons of smoke is the crematorium. Burning bodies is NOT a fun business and it produces tons of smoke.

Right now the crematorium is the same as the dwarves, and it does produce smoke. (Although not the fancy smoke above.)

Quote
Also, reading through the manual and the fluff on the ancient foundry (which I assume you can only get by raiding ruins). What if raiding ruins caused a war flag to go off with any non-orcish allies? After all! No one wants a return to the great hunt days. Not the goblins, not the bandit humans, not the deep drow, not the ash elves.

I still need to overhaul the manual as part of the rebalance. The ancient foundry is now unlocked by 'wandering ancient dreamlands'. It's pretty rare (only 5%, so you'd need to use 13 greater souls on average to unlock it), so it's definitely a late-game building. At this stage I'm cautious of making it harder still, as it's already pretty expensive to use. (Although on that note, I've noticed it's missing a reaction for manufacturing gloves.)

~ T
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shadowclasper

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #119 on: January 08, 2014, 02:56:20 pm »

On the note of the world stopping when you create your fortress. The entire point of the next update of vanilla DF is that it DOESN'T mostly stop while your fortress or adventurer are walking about. Wars and trade happen, people move between settlements, all of that happens regardless of your fortress. So in theory, it should allow, once Masterwork has made it's update to DF2014, orcs to set up raiding camps on roads.
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