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Author Topic: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!  (Read 8514 times)

Xob Ludosmbax

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Very nice work, Ravendarksky.  It's good to have confirmation that it wasn't just a fluke, and the extra !!SCIENCE!! is wonderful. 

I'm sorry, but I don't have a solution to the SMR issue.  I used dfhack to create the base for the submarine to land on. 

Edit:
I just figured it out!

Using Ravendarksky research and Merendel's idea about anchoring it to the sides, I did some experimenting. 

The first experiments weren't very successful, but the technique does drain the level of magma (lava?) within the volcano.  Once you drain the volcano, you can dump some water along the edges to cast an obsidian floor, as long as it has an edge to anchor against at the point the water meets the lava, it will create a wall.

After playing with this, I tried to drop a 40x40 floor-water sandwich over the top of the volcano.  I thought that it would spill over the sides, but it should drain the volcano all the way down to the SMR, allowing me to cast a floor at the lowest level of the volcano (after it fills back in).  I had some unexpected results.  An obsidian spire all the way down. 

I still need to reproduce it in a more controlled manner, but the answer is: "If the water is next to the wall of the volcano, it will attach."  To do this, you probably need to carve into the edge of the volcano to remove the supports on the z-level below the submarine. 

Also, the sandwich does not need to be directly above the lava - you can have several z-levels of air between the sandwich and the lava.

If I have time, I will experiment some more and post the results. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 10:16:09 pm by Xob Ludosmbax »
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Ravendarksky

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The submarine can be any number of z levels up and also only needs water in the top layer. Not sure I follow your new technique... Can we have some diagrams?
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Xob Ludosmbax

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Sorry, I was in a rush when I posted.  I had two new techniques.  I relied on the fact that if you drop water on magma where the magma is in contact with the side wall of the volcano, it will turn into obsidian and not cave-in. 


For the first technique, we start off by draining the volcano.  This is pretty simple, you just drop a water sandwich[1] down the middle of the volcano.  It will turn all of the magma into obsidian, which caves in and falls into the SMR and disappears.  Then we allow the tube to re-fill to the desired height.  Finally, we drop water into the volcano, making sure that at least one edge of the water is up against the edge of the tube.  The water that is against the side of the tube will hit the magma, turn into obsidian, and will not cave-in because it is supported by the edge of the tube. 

Unfortunately, water does not fall evenly, so creating a larger platform may be troublesome.  If you drop all the water at once, you may end up with some holes in your platform.  I did in my test.  If you drop the water a little at a time, the magma may refill too quickly, not allowing you to finish the platform.  I didn't test this.


For the second technique, I created a spire without draining the volcano first.  I tried to duplicate this under controlled conditions, and haven't had any luck yet. 


Also, to answer your earlier question "Can you make a lever which times the dwarfs exit and then very specifically does another action after a series of ticks"; I would use minecarts and pressure plates.  Specifically, I would figure out how long it takes the dwarf to exit, and set up the minecart/plate accordingly.


Finally, I think I understand the spire mechanics.  It's a bug.  The water is pushed down with the cave-in, falling to the bottom instantly.  Then the layer above the water (which pushed the water down in the first place) collapses through the water, pushing the water back up.  Then, (and here is the bug), the code checks to see if it should create the obsidian, and does so, and after it creates the obsidian, it checks if the tile is blocked, and if so, it pushes the water up again. 


Edit:

I keep thinking I'm done, when I come up with something else.  So, this method involves making the submarine taller than the distance between the SMR and the bottom of the volcano tube, and overlapping the wall of the submarine with the volcano tube.  It creates a spire, but no hollow (so far).  You can build the submarine over the volcano, or you can channel out the edge on the inside of the volcano to make room so that it isn't supported. 

Example save at: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=8390
(Sorry for the sad state of the fortress proper.)

I'm just picturing the goblins looking from a distance at my giant plumes of magma mist 25 z-levels above sea level and saying "Fucking Dwarves".



Edit 2:
Another example save: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=8391
Hollow spires, has an obsidian floor and 2/7 water half the time.  Refills with magma the other half of the time.  I have no idea what to think of this one.  It's definitely the closest I've come to the dwarven submarine I promised, but I have no idea how or why it works. 

For the download impaired, The top three layers are:

FFFFFFF WWWWWWW  WWWWWWW
FFFFFFF WWWWWWW  WFFFFFW
FFFFFFF WWFFFWW  WFFFFFW
FFFFFFF WWFFFWW  WFFFFFW
FFFFFFF WWFFFWW  WFFFFFW
FFFFFFF WWWWWWW  WFFFFFW
FFFFFFF WWWWWWW  WWWWWWW

and it creates a 5x5 spire with a 3x3 hollow.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 09:17:08 am by Xob Ludosmbax »
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Ravendarksky

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OK I've made some progress:

- Roofs are not needed
- I've managed to teleport a constructed staircase down with the submarine. I've not figured out how it works yet though.
- Floors can be made of anything
- Only 2/7 water on top layer is needed
- DEFINITELY doesn't work with magma
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Xob Ludosmbax

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2014, 02:15:11 am »

Very exciting results.  It's a pity my dreams of paving the ocean are smashed.  I updated the topic title accordingly.

Can you provide some more details on these two points?

- Roofs are not needed
- Floors can be made of anything
Specifically, what does your roofless structure look like?  Does "Made of anything" include constructed floors or just non-obsidian? 

I've made some minor progress as well. 

Using the inverted water pyramid:
- The outer shell can be made with constructed walls.  (Making it much easier to do without dfhack.)
- The floors still need to be cast, but the lower levels can remain as unmined walls.
- Casting just the roof doesn't work.  (Everything gets swallowed by the SMR)
- Making it with no roof gives you a solid obisidan spire. 

Also, once you get your hollow tube, you can build your glass submarine inside of it; deep within the volcano.  Then use Dwarven Power Mining to remove most of the outer obsidian.  Leaving you with a glass fortress suspended inside the caldera.

(Incidentally, if anyone is wondering, the reason 2/7 water is important is so that our dwarven passengers won't drown.  Nothing magical.)

Ravendarksky

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 06:12:24 am »

Very exciting results.  It's a pity my dreams of paving the ocean are smashed.  I updated the topic title accordingly.

Can you provide some more details on these two points?

- Roofs are not needed
- Floors can be made of anything
Specifically, what does your roofless structure look like?  Does "Made of anything" include constructed floors or just non-obsidian? 

I've made some minor progress as well. 

Using the inverted water pyramid:
- The outer shell can be made with constructed walls.  (Making it much easier to do without dfhack.)
- The floors still need to be cast, but the lower levels can remain as unmined walls.
- Casting just the roof doesn't work.  (Everything gets swallowed by the SMR)
- Making it with no roof gives you a solid obisidan spire. 

Also, once you get your hollow tube, you can build your glass submarine inside of it; deep within the volcano.  Then use Dwarven Power Mining to remove most of the outer obsidian.  Leaving you with a glass fortress suspended inside the caldera.

(Incidentally, if anyone is wondering, the reason 2/7 water is important is so that our dwarven passengers won't drown.  Nothing magical.)

My results differ from yours.... Here is the simplest submarine I've constructed yet: (Still gets the hollow layer)

Bottom level: Constructed floor, natural stone walls
Middle level: empty, no floor, natural stone walls
Top level: any depth of water + constructed floor + walls to stop water escaping

I'm not using a roof of any kind... This makes it easy to carve out of a cavern roof above a magma tube.... If we can address the SMR issue.

I was planning to test messing with the walls today.
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Beast Tamer

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 06:25:46 pm »

This is all incredibly fascinating but I have one question: could one of you make a video that shows how to create the submarine? So far my attempts haven't been successful.
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There is currently a minor problem in that the veteran demons fighting in the corpse factory have failed to die in the 2 year battle and have become legendary unkillable gods of war. I may have misjudged this possible outcome.

Ravendarksky

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 08:04:05 pm »

  • Find a deep area of magma with at least a solid block of 5x5x3 stone (x,y,z) above it.
  • Dig out a 3x3 area with stairs in the middle, leave a solid wall around it (5x5) and then channel round the edge of that (7x7)
  • Repeat for above z level
  • repeat for above z level
  • Channel out roof to allow miners to enter submarine
  • seal the top floor (make it watetight by replacing stairs with floor or upstairs and fill with water
  • channel out any supporting blocks and watch your sub fall!

You are going to have to watch closely to see the magic happen... as a column of air will fill the area of magma and quickly fill with magma again.
If you want to actually see the obsidian spire and submarine landing area then you will need to use dfhack to alter the SMR as follows:
tiletypes
tiletypes paint shape floor
tiletypes paint material stone
tiletypes paint special normal
range subx, suby
now run that command on the area of SMR where your submarine will be landing.

I made you a quick video but the quality isn't great and i use DFhack to speed up the demo (fastdwarf, liquids)
http://youtu.be/oxPqxDnO7sk
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Xob Ludosmbax

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2014, 10:03:17 pm »

An alternate method that I've been experimenting with is to build the following (cross section, support not shown)

|     _______  |
|     ||222||  |
|     |77777|  |
|     |77777|  |
|     |77777|  |
|     |77777|  |
|     |77777|  |
|           ___|
|77777777777|
|77777777777|
|77777777777|
|77777777777|
|77777777777|
|77777777777|
|77777777777|
|77777777777|
7777777777777
7777777777777
7777777777777
#############


Which gives you the following results:

|            |
|      |   ||
|      |   ||
|      |   ||
|      |   ||
|      |   ||
|      |   ||
|      |   ||
|777777|   ||
|777777|   ||
|777777|   ||
|777777|   ||
|777777|222||
|777777|___||
|777777||||||
|777777|777||
7777777777777
7777777777777
7777777777777
#############


Haven't worked up the exact numbers yet with regards to column heights, and some parts may not be required, or may be suboptimal.

Ravendarksky

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 05:04:37 am »

Is this your method which doesn't require natural stone walls?
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Xob Ludosmbax

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2014, 12:31:25 pm »

Yes.  It produces somewhat different results.  (See http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=8391)  There may be some other configurations that produce useful results; I haven't had time to check. 

The reason it doesn't need natural stone walls is that the lower z-levels produce stone walls, and the top z-level keeps the center clear (usually).  The overlap with the edge of the magma tube allows building over SMR.  Having enough height is critical when building over SMR in that it needs to be tall enough to catch the side of the tube. 

Nil Eyeglazed

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2014, 06:08:41 pm »

Also, to answer your earlier question "Can you make a lever which times the dwarfs exit and then very specifically does another action after a series of ticks"; I would use minecarts and pressure plates.  Specifically, I would figure out how long it takes the dwarf to exit, and set up the minecart/plate accordingly.

I'm not fully up to date on this version of DF (have been taking a long vacation from it) but this shouldn't be a difficult problem.

If the goal is to time a dwarf-cart dropping through a volcano, you make an analog-- a shaft, probably filled with magma, that is as deep as the drop.  Then you use a lever to drop both your actual dwarf-cart and your analog dwarf-cart.  You use a pressure plate at the bottom of the analog shaft to time the support destruction (meaning that the timing shaft is probably one z-level shorter than the actual volcano drop).  One lever is used to release both the actual dwarf-cart and the timing dwarf-cart.

I'm not sure if the timing dwarf-cart needs to weigh the same, or if the timing chute needs to be filled with magma.

If you care about 1-tick differences, you would need to pay attention to build order.
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He he he.  Yeah, it almost looks done...  alas...  those who are in your teens, hold on until your twenties...  those in your twenties, your thirties...  others, cling to life as you are able...<P>It should be pretty fun though.

Ravendarksky

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Re: Dwarven Submarines, Hollow Cave-Ins & Instant Obsidian Spires !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2014, 10:27:40 am »

Also, to answer your earlier question "Can you make a lever which times the dwarfs exit and then very specifically does another action after a series of ticks"; I would use minecarts and pressure plates.  Specifically, I would figure out how long it takes the dwarf to exit, and set up the minecart/plate accordingly.

I'm not fully up to date on this version of DF (have been taking a long vacation from it) but this shouldn't be a difficult problem.

If the goal is to time a dwarf-cart dropping through a volcano, you make an analog-- a shaft, probably filled with magma, that is as deep as the drop.  Then you use a lever to drop both your actual dwarf-cart and your analog dwarf-cart.  You use a pressure plate at the bottom of the analog shaft to time the support destruction (meaning that the timing shaft is probably one z-level shorter than the actual volcano drop).  One lever is used to release both the actual dwarf-cart and the timing dwarf-cart.

I'm not sure if the timing dwarf-cart needs to weigh the same, or if the timing chute needs to be filled with magma.

If you care about 1-tick differences, you would need to pay attention to build order.

Great idea thanks :) This will work if we can figure out the other issues.

I successfully dropped a dwarf in a minecart down a 140z level drop today with injury. Often legs, arms and ribs are broken though...I will probably use 9 dwarfs in a 3x3 pattern to make sure some people arrive in good shape.

I found a way to 'load' the dwarfs for dropping. If you have them drop onto a minecart while riding inside a minecart they get stuck ontop of it until the lower minecart moves.

I've not had time to play around with this much though, or try dropping them through magma... although that may not be necessary.
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