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Author Topic: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review  (Read 82434 times)

hector13

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #600 on: January 13, 2019, 09:40:37 pm »

How would you expect the spy to work on the forum? As I recall, in ToS the spy was able to "hear" what the mafia were saying during the night.

Also I don't like the mayor if you expect it to work the same as in ToS. Again, recollection tells me they are a confirmed townie and get 3 votes. Far too OP, especially if there are doctors in the game (more on this later)

I can't remember what an escort or transporter do, and I think the veteran is basically a paranoid gun owner? Again, perhaps too much for a 1 scum game, given they'll be dead if they choose wrong. Bad stuff.

How would role assignment work? A number of the town slots have repeated roles in them. If townie 2 is a vigilante, for example, would townie 3 also be able to be a vigilante?

I'd replace the doctor with the bodyguard too. It at least allows the scum to get a kill, but it means the town lose a protection role so they can't just do a follow-the-cop-like breaking strategy.

I do like there are fewer players than normal though, as our current lack of playerbase makes it hard to attract people.

How many ICs would you expect, and what about scum ICs, given there's only 1 scum slot if there are fewer than 7 players?
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webadict

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #601 on: January 13, 2019, 09:44:52 pm »

With suggestions from webadict, IcyTea and FallacyofUrist, I've been working on an idea to help bring new players into mafia, and I want to pitch it here to see what you think about it. Like Beginner's Mafia, it's meant to introduce newbies to the conventions of forum-based mafia.  However, while BM eases them in with a minimalist design, my idea is to appeal to them with a thematic and mechanical link to Town of Salem. Potential players have probably played that game before, and so will be more likely to sign up and enjoy playing because they are familiar with the game and it's rules.

The round can be run with 6 players, but can support up to (and seems best with) 10. It's a semi-open setup, with many of the roleslots being one of three possible roles. Here is the breakdown of that:

6 Players
Mafiaso
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Vigilante
Vigilante / Veteran / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Spy
Spy / Mayor / Doctor

7: Consort / Consigliere / Blackmailer
8: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
9: Random Town (from the 11 above)
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist

Days will last 48 hours, and nights will last until all actions are submitted (maximum of 24 hours). 6 players games (and maybe others?) will require a lynch everyday, to prevent the town from stalling things out while they gather info. Lynches will work as we're used to them, but - in the case of a forced lynch - ties will extend the day by 24 hours, and then will be broken at random if there's still a tie. Unlike Town of Salem, there are no whispers, and mafiachat works even during the day.

Now, I need to address the problem of balance. At face value, the town has a massive advantage because each of their players is a power role. However, I don't want to include vanilla roles in the game, because the guarantee of being a power role is the core appeal of Town of Salem. Therefore, I've done my best to balance out this advantage through other aspects of the game's design. First, the "1 of 3" roles make any claim by scum sound reasonable. Few of them can be directly counterclaimed, and even a massclaim can't pinpoint the liar. Secondly, the exact roles in the game have been chosen to give every type of scum at least one indesputable claim for an investigator. Lastly, some of the town roles in the game (Escort, Transporter, Vigilante and Veteran) can hurt or hinder the town, so their "anti-synergy" helps bring down the inherent advantage of being a power role.

What do you think? Is this a good setup, or are there some considerations I missed? Would anybody here - especially potential players who are considering joining the subforum - be interested in playing?
It's still broken by a massclaim, though less so than others. You could essentially rule out certain players based on a massclaim. A massclaim would win fairly often.

I think thinking too hard about it is pretty detrimental though. It's just keeping us from playing a game. Frankly, I'm actually thinking running some low power role games alongside high power role games would be a decent way to bring in players. Right now, one game every 2 months is a terrible way to have people join. A new player shows up and shows interest in a game, but we hold the next game a month later, at which point that interest has waned.

We need to be holding constant games. And games while other games are running. It seems counter-intuitive even, but if we have the ability for players to play, then we will get new players.

We're twiddling our thumbs though. We pander to the audience we know already exists. BYORs will get our attention because we've gotten bored of what there is. Do we even want Mafia anymore? Was there not fun in the way we moderated games without power roles?

We need to invest time and effort into creating a (let me gag while saying this) product that people want. I want fun. Fun games aren't necessarily filled with power roles. They're not necessarily filled with lore or shenanigans. It's not the puzzles or the flavor that makes the game. It's the moderator and the players. Each game is unique because the moderator or the players make it unique.

Although, I'm a bit to blame, as I haven't hosted a game in some time. I would certainly like to, but I don't have the time to do so anymore. So, I'm kinda hypocritical on this point.
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Tomasque

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #602 on: January 14, 2019, 12:41:45 am »

How would you expect the spy to work on the forum? As I recall, in ToS the spy was able to "hear" what the mafia were saying during the night.
Actually, Town of Salem changed the Spy's abilities completely. Now, they can visit a person to see what effect other people's abilities have had on them that night. So, basically an inverse Lookout. They also get to see who is visited by the mafia each night, but not which role did the visiting.

Also I don't like the mayor if you expect it to work the same as in ToS. Again, recollection tells me they are a confirmed townie and get 3 votes. Far too OP, especially if there are doctors in the game (more on this later)
The Mayor can't be healed by a Doctor once they've revealed. However, you're right about them being a bit OP. More on this later, when I suggest a slightly different setup.

I can't remember what an escort or transporter do, and I think the veteran is basically a paranoid gun owner? Again, perhaps too much for a 1 scum game, given they'll be dead if they choose wrong. Bad stuff.
Escort roleblocks. Transporter makes whoever would have visited the first target visit the second target instead, and vica versa. The Veteran is the paranoid gun owner, except that they can choose whether or not activate their ability (it's a 3-shot). Yeah, they're also pretty OP. On second thought, they'd definitely unbalance a small game. If I remove them and the Mayor, I can change the setup a bit, and make something we might both be happier with. How about this?

6 Players
Mafiaso
Consort / Framer / Blackmailer
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Spy
Spy / Vigilante / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Doctor

7: Bodyguard / Vigilante / Transporter
8: Executioner
9: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist

In this case, I don't think I'd force a lynch every day, since this setup benefits mafia enough. In fact, that "Bodyguard / Vigilante / Transporter" increases the nebulousness of the distribution immensely. Maybe this version gives Mafia too much of an advantage?

How would role assignment work? A number of the town slots have repeated roles in them. If townie 2 is a vigilante, for example, would townie 3 also be able to be a vigilante?
Before I assign roles to people, I randomly determine what the individual roles will be. These are determined independently from each other, and it is possible that two of the same role end up in the game. After that, I randomly assign the roles to the players.

I'd replace the doctor with the bodyguard too. It at least allows the scum to get a kill, but it means the town lose a protection role so they can't just do a follow-the-cop-like breaking strategy.
Even if it would be possible to gracefully extract the the Doctor from the setup pattern (which it wouldn't be after I removed the Mayor and Veteran), I wouldn't do it because the role serves a great purpose for the scum: The doctor is a protection role that cannot harm the scum (unlike the Bodyguard or Transporter) and it's the perfect fakeclaim spot for a Serial Killer suspecting an Investigator in the setup. "Follow the Cop" can easily be defeated by the Mafia's Consort or Blackmailer, so the Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout would never reveal themselves for that in the first place.

How many ICs would you expect, and what about scum ICs, given there's only 1 scum slot if there are fewer than 7 players?
With 2 Mafia in the revised setup, there'd be one Scum IC. As for the number of normal ICs, there'd be one at 6-8 players and two at 9-10.

@webadict: I want to get this thing running as soon as I can. I just need a little feedback from the players first. If I don't get anymore feedback that makes me change the setup, I'll get this running by the day after tomorrow.
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hector13

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #603 on: January 14, 2019, 08:41:27 am »

Yeah that seems a little unbalanced for town now. They could lose the game on N1 if they lynch wrong and scum kills, especially if there’s a vig who shoots and misses scum too. Maybe an anti-town third-party instead? This would allow an anti-town influence while keeping the game going for a few nights, and allow the game to keep going if mafia get killed.

Would you remove the executioner once they’ve killed their target? Would they become a jester if their target is killed outside of a lynch?

Also not a fan of the blackmailer role if you intend for it to silence players. Consigliere might be better, at least allowing the scum to know who’s what without ruining the fun for someone else.
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Tomasque

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #604 on: January 14, 2019, 11:22:35 am »

Yeah that seems a little unbalanced for town now. They could lose the game on N1 if they lynch wrong and scum kills, especially if there’s a vig who shoots and misses scum too. Maybe an anti-town third-party instead? This would allow an anti-town influence while keeping the game going for a few nights, and allow the game to keep going if mafia get killed.
I've thought of that, but it won't work. Here's a list of all anti-town neutrals in Town of Salem: Vampire, Executioner, Jester, Witch, Arsonist, Serial Killer and Werewolf. I can't use Vampire, because they're essentially a cultist. Arsonist, Serial Killer and Werewolf are all killing roles, so they're out. Executioner and Jester are minor anti-town, so they won't keep the game going when mafia dies. This leaves me with the Witch. Huh. Although I like the Witch, including the role doesn't prevent your theoretical situation at all. In fact, it would increase the chance of a Vigilante shooting a Townie. Therefore, that means that the only neutral I could include instead of a mafia support would be an Executioner or a Jester, but that would mean one hit against the Mafia would kill them. There's not a lot I can do to balance the 6 player game - town will simply have to play safe, and not lynch day one if they're unsure. However, I feel like including the Witch in the game somewhere now, so I'll put the role alongside the Serial Killer and Arsonist.

Would you remove the executioner once they’ve killed their target? Would they become a jester if their target is killed outside of a lynch?
I'll remove the Executioner once they win. If their target dies before they can get them lynched, I'll turn them into a Jester. Wondering whether or not the Executioner has become a Jester is an interesting conundrum I want the town (& scum) to think about.

Also not a fan of the blackmailer role if you intend for it to silence players. Consigliere might be better, at least allowing the scum to know who’s what without ruining the fun for someone else.
You're right. BM is a bit BS. I'll use the Consigliere instead. Here's the new setup.

6 Players
Mafiaso
Consort / Framer / Consigliere
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Spy
Spy / Vigilante / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Doctor

7: Bodyguard / Vigilante / Transporter
8: Executioner
9: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist / Witch
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TricMagic

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #605 on: January 14, 2019, 11:29:25 am »

I still need a couple more players too.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.0

hector13

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #606 on: January 14, 2019, 12:19:05 pm »

Yeah that seems a little unbalanced for town now. They could lose the game on N1 if they lynch wrong and scum kills, especially if there’s a vig who shoots and misses scum too. Maybe an anti-town third-party instead? This would allow an anti-town influence while keeping the game going for a few nights, and allow the game to keep going if mafia get killed.
I've thought of that, but it won't work. Here's a list of all anti-town neutrals in Town of Salem: Vampire, Executioner, Jester, Witch, Arsonist, Serial Killer and Werewolf. I can't use Vampire, because they're essentially a cultist. Arsonist, Serial Killer and Werewolf are all killing roles, so they're out. Executioner and Jester are minor anti-town, so they won't keep the game going when mafia dies. This leaves me with the Witch. Huh. Although I like the Witch, including the role doesn't prevent your theoretical situation at all. In fact, it would increase the chance of a Vigilante shooting a Townie. Therefore, that means that the only neutral I could include instead of a mafia support would be an Executioner or a Jester, but that would mean one hit against the Mafia would kill them. There's not a lot I can do to balance the 6 player game - town will simply have to play safe, and not lynch day one if they're unsure. However, I feel like including the Witch in the game somewhere now, so I'll put the role alongside the Serial Killer and Arsonist.

Would you remove the executioner once they’ve killed their target? Would they become a jester if their target is killed outside of a lynch?
I'll remove the Executioner once they win. If their target dies before they can get them lynched, I'll turn them into a Jester. Wondering whether or not the Executioner has become a Jester is an interesting conundrum I want the town (& scum) to think about.

Also not a fan of the blackmailer role if you intend for it to silence players. Consigliere might be better, at least allowing the scum to know who’s what without ruining the fun for someone else.
You're right. BM is a bit BS. I'll use the Consigliere instead. Here's the new setup.

6 Players
Mafiaso
Consort / Framer / Consigliere
Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
Doctor / Bodyguard / Spy
Spy / Vigilante / Escort
Escort / Transporter / Doctor

7: Bodyguard / Vigilante / Transporter
8: Executioner
9: Sheriff / Investigator / Lookout
10: Serial Killer / Arsonist / Witch

The second scum isn't the answer. I think one of the things about the scum side of things is playing as a team, which unbalances things a lot if there are fewer than 7 players.

I was thinking that instead of having scum for a <7 player game, you have a serial killer instead. It essentially acts the same as the mafia in that they're trying to blend in, and it allows them a doctor claim if they get investigated, while the lookout or sheriff can counter that claim.

This would necessitate taking out (or severely limiting) any town-aligned killing roles, because that could win the game for them if they choose right.

In a 7+ player game, the way you have it is good, I think, though my preference would still be for an old school bodyguard - they die in place of their protected target - rather than doctors, since I think doctors are a bit OP.

Another way of getting round having only one scum is allowing them to kill and to have another action. Maybe a 1-shot of each of the three powers they would have if another scum player was in the game, or a permanent inspect.
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Tomasque

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #607 on: January 14, 2019, 12:53:37 pm »

I still need a couple more players too.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=172127.0
Don't worry, I'm not trying to stop yours from running. If you run first, I won't mind; if I run first, you'll surely have enough players after that.

The second scum isn't the answer. I think one of the things about the scum side of things is playing as a team, which unbalances things a lot if there are fewer than 7 players.

I was thinking that instead of having scum for a <7 player game, you have a serial killer instead. It essentially acts the same as the mafia in that they're trying to blend in, and it allows them a doctor claim if they get investigated, while the lookout or sheriff can counter that claim.

This would necessitate taking out (or severely limiting) any town-aligned killing roles, because that could win the game for them if they choose right.

In a 7+ player game, the way you have it is good, I think, though my preference would still be for an old school bodyguard - they die in place of their protected target - rather than doctors, since I think doctors are a bit OP.

Another way of getting round having only one scum is allowing them to kill and to have another action. Maybe a 1-shot of each of the three powers they would have if another scum player was in the game, or a permanent inspect.
Alright. It looks like we're in disagreement on what to do in a 6 player game. I think that if I run this, I'lll either get at least 7 players or not enough to run it at all, so let's not worry about it for now. After a round of this, we'll both know more about how this is balanced, anyway.
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hector13

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #608 on: January 14, 2019, 01:51:18 pm »

Yeah, there's only so much we can say about balance before we run into subjectivity regarding the efficacy of certain roles. At the very least it's some originality for the board, hopefully it will bring in some new people.
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Tomasque

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #609 on: January 16, 2019, 02:05:02 pm »

Alright, I've put the game in signups.
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Tomasque

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #610 on: January 24, 2019, 09:02:19 pm »

I just need an IC, and then I can start the game. Would anyone here be interested?
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dolores

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #611 on: March 28, 2019, 10:39:53 am »

So I had a thought a while ago and since then have been thinking of a mechanic to try and address the inability to deal with inactive players who aren't necessarily suspicious.
The premise is essentially just a secondary 'lynch'/daykill which doesn't penalize the town for hitting town or benefit the town for hitting scum; in essence, a way for the town to remove inactive players without disrupting scumhunting.
My working thoughts so far are:
The 'recycle' works on a hammer system and kills the player. If they were town, the next nightkill is prevented. If they were scum, two more (unblockable?) nightkills will happen in the next night phase.
Only available D1?

Obviously, there are problems with what happens when the player happens to be scum, since it brings the end of the game much closer. It's also a little heavy-handed, but that's probably unavoidable.
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Persus13

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #612 on: March 28, 2019, 05:22:33 pm »

Is the goal to motivate activity or remove null reads? I could see it working in a low power role game, but not so much in a high power game if the goal is to remove null reads.
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dolores

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #613 on: March 28, 2019, 05:38:30 pm »

To remove null reads.
Games with a night-power emphasis are fucked if players don't turn up anyway, just look at BYOR0
(I also don't think high power games are good anyway but that's neither here nor there)
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KitRougard

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Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« Reply #614 on: March 28, 2019, 05:41:28 pm »

Hm, two more Night kills are a bit much... One more kill, and the option to make one kill Unblockable or get another (normal) kill?
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