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Author Topic: Tribulations in Magic: The cavalry is... still preparing.  (Read 183238 times)

Toaster

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Does this include turning yourself into a vacuum and consuming people?  Or into that purple death stuff and enveloping people?
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

Tomcost

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Does this include turning yourself into a vacuum and consuming people?  Or into that purple death stuff and enveloping people?
The mechanics for those situations are too fun secret to discuss yet.

Rolepgeek

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Okay, what if I get spiky metal piercings and stab them into someone, then electrocute myself?
More like if you are totally made of metal. And that is actually detrimental to your own possibilities of resisting electricity. So no, no exploiting game mechanics!
Isn't exploiting game mechanics the entire point of this game, though? :P
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Sincerely, Role P. Geek

Optimism is Painful.
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Tomcost

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Okay, what if I get spiky metal piercings and stab them into someone, then electrocute myself?
More like if you are totally made of metal. And that is actually detrimental to your own possibilities of resisting electricity. So no, no exploiting game mechanics!
Isn't exploiting game mechanics the entire point of this game, though? :P
I wouldn't call it exploiting. Using them efficiently, yes. Using your own weaknesses and cheesy strategies as means of defeating other players, no. When a competitive game allows that kind of things, more often than not that ends up becoming the mandatory way to play, and I do not pretend that. I want players to have their own cool stuff, but that cool stuff has limitations. You are trading one thing from another. Without that, there would be something overpowered. And that's when the game gets broken. Think about will in the original Perplexicon. The turns were "I wanna tear out player B's spine" Rolls: 4v3 You do so, player B dies. How much knowledge did you have than said player? Probably two words. What coudl that player do? Absolutely nothing. That's what I don't like.

For example, Igor. He is not going to fail an endurance check, but he can't do other stuff. He can't do magic right, and, if I allowed the hugging shenanigan, then that strategy would be the most viable of all. Why? Because, with 8 points in endurance and 1 in pool, you could end up killing players with the same ease a wizard character would do, and without any penalties to that. The question here is: is that fair? My answer is no.

Rolepgeek

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But it is a strategy of it's own, isn't it? You can die to will-hitting attacks, and why shouldn't being a physical character(he has to reach you to hug you, and succeed on the dex check to hug you,and the str check to keep you from getting away...) be as rewarding as being a mage, especially if you're using magic to accomplish said goals?

But I suppose my real quarrel is this: the mark of a good tactician is the ability to turn weaknesses into strengths,and liabilities into assets. And you seem opposed to this.

I mean,hell, I know a shitton of words, it feels like, with all the testing I've been doing, but I have shitty stats so it's likely it won't matter, especially now that my leg is trying to throttle me.
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Optimism is Painful.
Optimize anyway.

Tomcost

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But it is a strategy of it's own, isn't it? You can die to will-hitting attacks, and why shouldn't being a physical character(he has to reach you to hug you, and succeed on the dex check to hug you,and the str check to keep you from getting away...) be as rewarding as being a mage, especially if you're using magic to accomplish said goals?
The point is, the character would be getting too much. Somebody like Igor would not only be good at resisting stuff, but also would be a good mage. It is essentially giving someone the possibility to use ones as sixes. And that is game breaking. Yes, he needs to hug you and all, but if you compare him with a mage character, you will find that the maluses from strength are likely going to be the same. So, you are in about the same position than someone (barring dex, but wrestling is more str based), with the difference that said person is inmune to a kind of magic he uses, which means that the mage can't use that kind of magic against the other one either. So, we have a mage that is invulnerable to a kind of magic (plausible), but from the start (plausible at extreme costs), and that can perform as well as a moderately specialized character. That's is too much.

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But I suppose my real quarrel is this: the mark of a good tactician is the ability to turn weaknesses into strengths,and liabilities into assets. And you seem opposed to this.
The mark of a good tactician is making the best possible use of your strengths, and hiding or otherwise don't allowing your weaknesses to be exploited. What you describe would be a godlike tactician.

Without getting into specifics definitions and all, there is a line that can't be crossed without making the exploit overpowered and transforming it into the general way to play.

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I mean,hell, I know a shitton of words, it feels like, with all the testing I've been doing, but I have shitty stats so it's likely it won't matter, especially now that my leg is trying to throttle me.
The problem you had with magic was a matter of both the RNG and non-RNG luck. The RNG because of your 16.66% of probabilities of failing. Non RNG luck because the effects of a failure depend on the words used, and in certain cases, said failure only means that no information is given. Your charater has a good specialization for doing science with words witohut tangible effects. You are actually more specialized than what you think. The problem is, you can't do many things with them, unless you make an efficient use of the overdrive mechanic and the focus mechanic. In fact, you can instantly gain a +2 in any given stat (and with luck, even more for those in which you have 0). Knowledge is also valuable, allowing trade and diplomacy. The alternatives exist, but it depends on the player to see them.

Toaster

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If you're looking for a compromise suggestion, may I suggest exploding dice for handling critical failures?  On a 1->6, you zap yourself and around you, potentially getting an attack (but still having to roll endurance.)  On a 1->1, you'd turn a body part into electricity, with the obviously bad negative repercussions.


But hey, your game.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

Bigf00t

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My two cents,

As far tas the "becoming a cloud of necrosis mist and enveloping people" as fun as it might seem to begin with, that means that people will be BREATHING you. To hurt people you have to give up chunks of yourself. That seems counterproductive.

Also I am achieving the same result with a two part setup. What Igor has is a one part setup. I made myself immune to the mist (not needing to breathe/not fleshy), and then I started weaponizing the mist effectively (decent pot). Igor has made himself more-or-less immune to lightning, but has yet to assist himself in the weaponizing department (no pot, or more-or-less no pot).

I guess our almighty GM just isn't as fond of making the same things that make you immune to things, let you employ them with lethal abandon.
As soon as he gets some points in pot however. Well.

EDIT: Actually an effective setup for Igor RIGHT NOW would be to serve as a meatshield for a squishy character who CAN deal damage. He can take all of the hits/grapple people to immobilize them and The Damage Dealer could just let Igor get some of the last hits on their victims every now and then. You're welcome.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 09:55:26 pm by Bigf00t »
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WELCOME TO PERPLEXICON! I HOPE YOU LIKE RESPAWNING!
But screw it nobody tames a murderbear without taking risks.

Rolepgeek

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My two cents,

As far tas the "becoming a cloud of necrosis mist and enveloping people" as fun as it might seem to begin with, that means that people will be BREATHING you. To hurt people you have to give up chunks of yourself. That seems counterproductive.
People also have to breathe out, you know.
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Sincerely, Role P. Geek

Optimism is Painful.
Optimize anyway.

NAV

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Tomcost, I respect a gm that keeps their game balanced. Even when it doesn't work in my favour,
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Highmax…dead, flesh torn from him, though his skill with the sword was unmatched…military…Nearly destroyed .. Rhunorah... dead... Mastahcheese returns...dead. Gaul...alive, still locked in combat. NAV...Alive, drinking booze....
The face on the toaster does not look like one of mercy.

Tomcost

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My two cents,

As far tas the "becoming a cloud of necrosis mist and enveloping people" as fun as it might seem to begin with, that means that people will be BREATHING you. To hurt people you have to give up chunks of yourself. That seems counterproductive.
This is interesting. In some interesting ways. [FORESHADOWING INTENSIFIES]

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Also I am achieving the same result with a two part setup. What Igor has is a one part setup. I made myself immune to the mist (not needing to breathe/not fleshy), and then I started weaponizing the mist effectively (decent pot). Igor has made himself more-or-less immune to lightning, but has yet to assist himself in the weaponizing department (no pot, or more-or-less no pot).
But, to do that, you have more knowledge than the average folk, and you had to invest points in pool to do that. Also, the mist was not really supposed to get to the necrosis part quickly. It's main nature is to be that thing that bothers you constantly, rather than something deadly. Even now that it evolved into its final stage, it takes time to kill.

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I guess our almighty GM just isn't as fond of making the same things that make you immune to things, let you employ them with lethal abandon.
As soon as he gets some points in pot however. Well.
You can make yourself inmune to things (relatively speaking, because with some points in pot you could actaully succeed in hurting Igor with lightning), and you can specialize yourself in some kind of means of harming people. But doing both requires extra knowledge and souls.

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EDIT: Actually an effective setup for Igor RIGHT NOW would be to serve as a meatshield for a squishy character who CAN deal damage. He can take all of the hits/grapple people to immobilize them and The Damage Dealer could just let Igor get some of the last hits on their victims every now and then. You're welcome.
He is a meatshield. He is the ideal meatshield. He can't harm poeople reliably, that's what he traded for being imprevious to lightning. Those who doesn't risk anything, won't gain much. He has to hope that he dice roll in his favour at some point. And, given how much he is likely to last, it can happen in the future.

Tomcost, I respect a gm that keeps their game balanced. Even when it doesn't work in my favour,
I'm glad that you respect this. Bear in mind that I'm not saying that your character build is terrible or anything. It is designed to last a lot of punishment, and rely on chance to do actual damage. Or killstealing. Well, everybody killsteals when they get the chance.

Toaster

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Clearly he just needs to pick up people and walk into dangerous situations with them, relying on his resistance to avoid serious damage while the frailer other dies painfully.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

Bigf00t

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Clearly he just needs to pick up people and walk into dangerous situations with them, relying on his resistance to avoid serious damage while the frailer other dies painfully.
This is a thing of beauty.
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WELCOME TO PERPLEXICON! I HOPE YOU LIKE RESPAWNING!
But screw it nobody tames a murderbear without taking risks.

Toaster

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I call it the Donkey Kong Maneuver.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

NAV

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Clearly he just needs to pick up people and walk into dangerous situations with them, relying on his resistance to avoid serious damage while the frailer other dies painfully.
I would sig this, except my sig is full and I don't have a sigtext.
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Highmax…dead, flesh torn from him, though his skill with the sword was unmatched…military…Nearly destroyed .. Rhunorah... dead... Mastahcheese returns...dead. Gaul...alive, still locked in combat. NAV...Alive, drinking booze....
The face on the toaster does not look like one of mercy.
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