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[Iduno]

So, when it comes to stuff like pistols and shotguns (bullets, not lasers, mind), what are your preferred choices? There happen to be an awful lot of both by the time you hit the mid-game.

I, for one, seem to be doing fine with Shiny Niners (for now) and Heavy Shotguns, though the Combat and Assault shotguns are also pretty good.

I usually go with pocket laspistols and self-charging laspistols, just because they don't require ammo. I usually try to keep the enemy alive, so rusty niners (fairly quick and accurate, lower damage) for when I have to use bullets. If I need something bigger, I'll use a grenade.

I took out the Jack B tank with 6-8 hellerium grenades, dropped from directly above by a hover-gal.  I know you said you got the grenades inside the "shell", but it's such a weird use of terrain I have to wonder.  I guess it registered 0-damage "hits" though (I need to find the hotkey to check damage rolls...)

LASS and Panzerfaust are a lot better than I expected against normal tanks and APCs, but I haven't tried against that stupid shell.  I bet it would take multiple shots to shoot through, but maybe a rocket from above would bypass.

The grenades got arced pretty high up. Maybe I just need a real lucky damage roll?

I've also heard Panzerfausts don't do anything to the outside of the tank. 200 damage from Hellerium Rockets is enough probably better to make it through the armor. Based on the map, it appears the tank turret is the only part that can be injured, and the tank part is just a pile of armor or something sitting around it?

[Dostoevsky]

So, when it comes to stuff like pistols and shotguns (bullets, not lasers, mind), what are your preferred choices? There happen to be an awful lot of both by the time you hit the mid-game.

Preferred choices at what point? Silver Snakes and the other stat-based-damage pistols are pretty reliable for a while. Suppressed pistol is great with certain +reaction armors and/or Lokknars, as they combine decent damage with the ability to get out a whole bunch of rounds (5 or 6?) in a turn. Kustom Handcannons do decent damage with the slugs and double as clubs, which I believe is unique among pistols.

A bit later in, the supermagnum with its smart bullets is pretty darn potent with a skilled hand -- can get 100+% snap shots at 120 skill and squeeze off several per round, and they have both armor piercing and extra HP damage. Justiciar is pretty decent, and also can just be bought (after one gets the right contacts).

Manstoppers with EP rounds can also get special mention, since it's a decent amount of damage with an uncommon damage type.

As to the prior comment about skipping to real weapons, sidearms are an easy way to diversify damage types for rifle users, and a good 'normal weapon' for those lugging around rocket launchers and the like. While they won't be best-in-class damage, there are plenty powerful options across several damage types.

Death blossoms don't fit in the sidearm slot, and they never really seemed to perform well for me.

Shotguns I'm pretty 'eh' about. The ones that can take chem rounds have some use softening up targets, but otherwise I feel they get out-armored pretty quick (at least until you get HVAP/Nuke rounds). The giant shotguns can be kind of amusing, but never really found them practical. Sidearm-fitting shotguns have a decent niche for undercover missions, but otherwise lack the damage to get through armor.

My favorite shotgun is probably the shotgun shield, hah. It can use decently-powerful shells that it fires in heavy salvos, and it's a legitimately good shield for a good part of the game.

Based on the map, it appears the tank turret is the only part that can be injured, and the tank part is just a pile of armor or something sitting around it?

That's been my impression as well, though I haven't tested too thoroughly. Middle-mousing the turret is the only responsive entity.

As to taking one out, the only luck I've had is numerous heavy weapons (e.g. R-Rifles, MAG rockets, etc.). Given how dangerous its main cannon is, it's a pretty rough mission unless your allies keep its attention.

[E. Albright]

Shotguns I'm pretty 'eh' about. The ones that can take chem rounds have some use softening up targets, but otherwise I feel they get out-armored pretty quick.

On a related note, shotguns (particularly automatic ones) are good against shields precisely because armor isn't an issue.

[Aoi]

As to the prior comment about skipping to real weapons, sidearms are an easy way to diversify damage types for rifle users, and a good 'normal weapon' for those lugging around rocket launchers and the like. While they won't be best-in-class damage, there are plenty powerful options across several damage types.

Which non-laser/plasma pistols have alternative damage types in the early game? All that comes to mind is the Skorpion which sets people on fire in addition to being a fairly normal bullet.

[Dostoevsky]

On a related note, shotguns (particularly automatic ones) are good against shields precisely because armor isn't an issue.

I probably need to experiment more using shotguns on shields, yeah. It's just that the ones that bother me most are resistant to piercing. Might be one reason why the slaughter cannon is one of the few shotguns I keep around.

Which non-laser/plasma pistols have alternative damage types in the early game? All that comes to mind is the Skorpion which sets people on fire in addition to being a fairly normal bullet.

Early game that's pretty much not an option, yeah. The earliest thing I can think of is chem rounds, which you can make for the smg and magnum (among other weapons). Might stumble early across phoenix rounds for the mini-shotgun, too (they do proper incendiary instead of the Skorpion's 'just add fire').

When I was making that particular comment I was including the laser/plasma options in addition to just the ballistics, to be honest. Although I suppose I'd argue that one's choices for alternative damage types is pretty constrained in general during the early game.

[E. Albright]

Probably not what would spring to mind, but flintlock pistols can pack WP, which is reasonably nasty. You can also stick those in clockwork guns.

Dart pistols with sleep ammo instead of the harder-to-find tranq are actually meaner than they might look - 50% armor penetration and bio damage, although they're a bit inconsistent as to whether they KO or kill.

Various small SMGs do proper incendiary ammo (and chem).

[Iduno]

As to the prior comment about skipping to real weapons, sidearms are an easy way to diversify damage types for rifle users, and a good 'normal weapon' for those lugging around rocket launchers and the like. While they won't be best-in-class damage, there are plenty powerful options across several damage types.

That's what I use grenades for, mainly fire. I'll carry 2 different types in the shield slots or belt, to give more options. Probably because (as others have mentioned) you don't get much for choices of damage type any other way early game.

Based on the map, it appears the tank turret is the only part that can be injured, and the tank part is just a pile of armor or something sitting around it?

That's been my impression as well, though I haven't tested too thoroughly. Middle-mousing the turret is the only responsive entity.

As to taking one out, the only luck I've had is numerous heavy weapons (e.g. R-Rifles, MAG rockets, etc.). Given how dangerous its main cannon is, it's a pretty rough mission unless your allies keep its attention.
[/quote]

I also just noticed the September 8 build (the one I'm using) has this note: "Sligtly lowered tanks' fire resist, and increased WP armor bypass to 80%." That sounds like Willie Pete is intended to be a solution to tanks. I don't know if that's the little armored car "tanks" or the Battle Tank. But I tried it (only with 2 grenades) and it didn't do anything (8x zero damage).

Tanks are generally quite resistant to concussive damage...

I looked, and all of the anti-tank weaponry (Recoilless Rifles, Rocket Launchers, Panzerfausts, LASSes, HEAT rockets/RPG) are concussive.

[Rince Wind]

But the proper Anti-Tank Weapons also ignore a part of the armor, unlike grenades, probably to simulate shaped charges or other armor defeating technologies.


Re: Shotguns:
I forgot the CAWS, which is nice and some people usually leave enough ammo at your doorstep so you don't have to worry about resupply.
I have never used the scatter ammo, but the AP rounds have a very decent range and damage.

[E. Albright]

I also just noticed the September 8 build (the one I'm using) has this note: "Sligtly lowered tanks' fire resist, and increased WP armor bypass to 80%." That sounds like Willie Pete is intended to be a solution to tanks. I don't know if that's the little armored car "tanks" or the Battle Tank. But I tried it (only with 2 grenades) and it didn't do anything (8x zero damage).

WP isn't going to be great against tanks even if it laughs off armor. 25-75 damage at 20% armor looks nice, until you consider that it'll be something like  4-12 damage vs. 20 armor after damage resistance is taken into account. Those numbers are from J16, but even if fire resist is halved from 15%-ish to 30%-ish that'd only be 8-24 against 20-ish armor.

[Dostoevsky]

That's what I use grenades for, mainly fire. I'll carry 2 different types in the shield slots or belt, to give more options. Probably because (as others have mentioned) you don't get much for choices of damage type any other way early game.

I always find grenades to be too TU-intensive for my tastes; tricky to get in place and throw in a single turn. Having one pre-primed in your hands at mission start is better, but somewhat risky. The ones that don't need to be primed are certainly more useful, but much more limited in damage type.

With a holstered sidearm, only 5 TU to draw (assuming a free hand) so one can either fire a few shots or shoot once and get behind cover.

That said, you're absolutely right that grenades offer a great wealth of damage types and pack a lot of punch into a single inventory slot. I usually carry both a sidearm and grenades, if possible.

I looked, and all of the anti-tank weaponry (Recoilless Rifles, Rocket Launchers, Panzerfausts, LASSes, HEAT rockets/RPG) are concussive.

R-Rifle is piercing, actually, and (in my opinion) one of the better anti-tanks options. High damage even with normal ammo, 60% armor effectiveness, and damage directly to armor. All that and you can buy them en masse not too far along, so one can easily stock secondary bases with anti-tank weaponry.

The only real minus is that, unlike the explosive ones, there's no explosion. So only one damage roll, no under-armor shenanigans, etc.

The disposable launchers and basic rocket launcher ammo aren't very reliable at all against proper tanks, no. Thanks to their armor-piercing abilities and blast radius one can have some luck, but not something to be counted on.

Really early on, the Rotogun is a decent option. 133% armor effectiveness is crummy, of course, but it strips armor with every shot... and there are a lot of shots. Even if it fails to take something out, the target ends up a fair bit more vulnerable. Loots UAC chainguns can also serve in this role.

Before getting R-rifles, the light cannon works passably. Not the highest damage, but manageable weight & TU costs, and strips some armor with each shot. Don't use it on an actual tank, but works on lighter vehicles and power armor.

The true best option I've found for dealing with tanks is MAG rockets (custom ammo for the rocket launcher). 240 piercing damage with 60% armor effectiveness can sometimes crack open a tank in a single shot. (The stationary MBTs are another story, of course.) Only real issue (aside from the usual limitations of heavy launchers) is that you need to produce the ammo.

Portable lascannons are also a decent anti-tank option, at least when available.

Re: Shotguns:
I forgot the CAWS, which is nice and some people usually leave enough ammo at your doorstep so you don't have to worry about resupply.
I have never used the scatter ammo, but the AP rounds have a very decent range and damage.

Shoot, I forgot about the CAWS too. The AP ammo makes for a decent rookie weapon, yeah - low skill floor (aim is based on 50+0.5skill instead or raw skill), good damage, ammo is common to find. Only issue is somewhat limited range.

[Soadreqm]

So, how about that Battle Tank in Jack's Bounty B mission, eh?

I landed 3 hellerium grenades inside of the shell of the tank. All got zero damage 4 times.

The one time I fought it, I took it out in a suicide attack with the plasma drill.

[Iduno]

The true best option I've found for dealing with tanks is MAG rockets (custom ammo for the rocket launcher). 240 piercing damage with 60% armor effectiveness can sometimes crack open a tank in a single shot. (The stationary MBTs are another story, of course.) Only real issue (aside from the usual limitations of heavy launchers) is that you need to produce the ammo.

The problem is an MBT, but 240 damage is -40% armor would be a good option. Beats hellerium rockets, which are already impressive.

I always find grenades to be too TU-intensive for my tastes; tricky to get in place and throw in a single turn. Having one pre-primed in your hands at mission start is better, but somewhat risky. The ones that don't need to be primed are certainly more useful, but much more limited in damage type.

With a holstered sidearm, only 5 TU to draw (assuming a free hand) so one can either fire a few shots or shoot once and get behind cover.

That said, you're absolutely right that grenades offer a great wealth of damage types and pack a lot of punch into a single inventory slot. I usually carry both a sidearm and grenades, if possible.

Yeah, I usually lean on molotovs and black powder bombs until they quit working. No need to prime, and they don't explode when they hit the ground. They do quit working against enemies I can't easily take out after a year or so.

[E. Albright]

I always find grenades to be too TU-intensive for my tastes; tricky to get in place and throw in a single turn. Having one pre-primed in your hands at mission start is better, but somewhat risky. The ones that don't need to be primed are certainly more useful, but much more limited in damage type.

Just to be clear, you can carry as many pre-primed grenades as you want if you're willing to take the risk - pockets work just as well as hands. KO grenades and smoke grenades feel a whole lot safer, obviously.

(Obviously, what you REALLY want to do is have all your gals carry pre-primed barrel bombs in their backpacks. That really ups the ante, if ya ask me.)

[Dostoevsky]

The problem is an MBT, but 240 damage is -40% armor would be a good option. Beats hellerium rockets, which are already impressive.

Oh yeah, I just meant you can't take out an MBT in a single shot. At least, I don't think so. Still my vote for best choice when you're facing slabs of heavy armor and need to punch through pronto.

Yeah, I usually lean on molotovs and black powder bombs until they quit working. No need to prime, and they don't explode when they hit the ground. They do quit working against enemies I can't easily take out after a year or so.

Despite being a little weaker than a black powder bomb and actually requiring some resources to produce, stick grenades are also good in this role - they're lighter and can be thrown further. Good for troops that lack the mobility of a gal.

Just to be clear, you can carry as many pre-primed grenades as you want if you're willing to take the risk - pockets work just as well as hands. KO grenades and smoke grenades feel a whole lot safer, obviously.

I think I managed to make myself forget about that option after a rather hilarious/disastrous outcome during a base defense. I somehow forgot to stock enough guns for all the troops, so had several just carrying belts full of live HE grenades. Yeah. (Relatedly, that reminds me that if you're feeling like a terrible person you can pack a dog's item slots full of live explosives to make a rudimentary homing missile. Just don't be surprised when your squad starts freaking out from the casualties.)

Anyways, smoke grenades sounds like a pretty great use of that function for troops that aren't expected to be getting into melee.

[Aoi]

I think I managed to make myself forget about that option after a rather hilarious/disastrous outcome during a base defense. I somehow forgot to stock enough guns for all the troops, so had several just carrying belts full of live HE grenades. Yeah. (Relatedly, that reminds me that if you're feeling like a terrible person you can pack a dog's item slots full of live explosives to make a rudimentary homing missile. Just don't be surprised when your squad starts freaking out from the casualties.)

Anyways, smoke grenades sounds like a pretty great use of that function for troops that aren't expected to be getting into melee.

The dog+grenades strategy is one I like to employ early on... also, the 100TU that dogs get goes a surprisingly long way for getting in, and, ideally, out of danger after dropping a few grenades, if you don't like operating with a cuddly suicider.

I always pack a live smoke grenade onto everybody-- if they fall unconscious, it acts as emergency cover (and does anybody friendly really die of overstun outside of extreme emergencies?) to pull them out, and if they die... at least they helped block visibility for their surviving comrades.

And in terms of bad base decisions: I had to fend off a base assault once with a team of untrained peasants and a parrot... and all my (ranged) weapons were heavy ordinance.