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Author Topic: The Dwemer of Elder Scrolls are everything our dwarves should aspire to be.  (Read 4734 times)

Kaiser Reinhard

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First of all, we should discuss the similarities between the Dwemer of the Elder Scrolls series and our dwarves. Other than the usual dwarf traits of luxurious beards and living in huge underground mountain fortresses, by the other races the Dwemer were feared as monsters, they were "fearsome, unfathomable, and even cruel, though also careful, intelligent, and industrious." Well, maybe our definition of intelligence and care doesn't really fit our dwarves, but the others count.

Secondly, one of the abilities of the Dwemer was the "Calling". It's pretty much a massive telepathy network that allowed all of them to communicate like a magical psychic internet. How do you think your dwarves can organize themselves so well without actually meeting? One of them starts harvesting Plump Helmets, another starts brewing them into alcohol, and another starts making barrels out of wood which in turn is about to be chopped by a woodcutter. They don't meet and communicate directly, so how do they organize themselves? Simple, they have the Calling too.

Now here's where the Dwemer have surpassed our dwarves and what our dwarves can learn from them.

1. Thousands of years after they all vanished, their machinery and mechanisms are still all working and maintaining themselves without needing input from them. They use reality breaking concepts to provide infinite power for their defense automatons from trapped souls.

2. They outdid every other race on the planet with their accomplishments. Though the same could be said of our dwarves, they sheer scaled by which they surpassed everything else is mindblowing. Thousands of years later and still no one has deciphered their secrets. Partly because the gods themselves feared what the dwemer could do, and do their best to stop people from understanding them.

3. Losing is fun, and they all Lost in the most spectacular way possible. All of them in the world simply vanished. Poof. They poofed themselves out of existence, and it was very likely related to their own Megaproject, something no dwarf of ours has ever come close to...

4. Numidium, the name of their megaproject. What it essentially is is a massive golem so powerful it's effectively an artificial god, powered by the heart of a dead god of creation. It's so powerful merely activating it causes reality to BREAK APART. It's pretty agreed on that the Dwemer vanished because they were trying to achieve godhood, and they might have done it by fusing themselves with the Numudium as its skin. That or they poofed themselves out of reality by realising they were in a video game, but that's another thing entirely.

As an example of how ridiculous it is, when a human emperor used it to lay siege to the capital of the elves which had resisted everything else he threw at them before, they had to surrender within minutes. And even then, because of how the Numidium messes with space and time just by being turned on, it's still attacking them from alternate dimensions even when the siege itself was hundreds of years ago. The elves have to send their most powerful mages into these alternate dimensions just to fend it off, and even then it manages to slip a little by every now and then to cause more mayhem. It will continue to attack for at minimum a few hundred years more. The same Emperor who used it later became a god himself.


So? Are the dwemer perhaps the final form of our dwarves? What else should our dwarves strive to learn from?
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Sizik

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Counterpoint: The dwemer are/were technically elves.
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Skyscrapes, the Tower-Fortress, finally complete!
Skyscrapes 2, repelling the zombie horde!

Kaiser Reinhard

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Counterpoint: The dwemer are/were technically elves.

I'd say being responsible for the genocide of another race of elves and hating all the rest makes them collectively redeem themselves like Cacame

Also, you could give them credit for inventing the monolith that smashed and humiliated the high elves in the first place
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 11:22:23 am by Kaiser Reinhard »
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thvaz

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Counterpoint: The dwemer are/were technically elves.

So are the orcs.
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smjjames

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Also, from the drawings and stuff that I've seen, they have Mesopotamian style beards and hair. Not to mention pointy ears.

Also, according to skyrim (or maybe another spinoff), aren't the humans offshoots of the elves too? There is one human group that are pretty much half elves though.
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BoredVirulence

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Secondly, one of the abilities of the Dwemer was the "Calling". It's pretty much a massive telepathy network that allowed all of them to communicate like a magical psychic internet. How do you think your dwarves can organize themselves so well without actually meeting? One of them starts harvesting Plump Helmets, another starts brewing them into alcohol, and another starts making barrels out of wood which in turn is about to be chopped by a woodcutter. They don't meet and communicate directly, so how do they organize themselves? Simple, they have the Calling too.
Explain cancellation spam with seeds in bins.

I agree that we need more machinery. It would be nice if we could create smaller logic circuits, rather than the mega-projects they often become just for simple tasks. I have the same problem with the logic circuits you can create in minecraft, it simply takes up too much space for some simple logic. Although we do have magical linking mechanisms, so there's that...
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Putnam

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Also, according to skyrim (or maybe another spinoff), aren't the humans offshoots of the elves too?

Only to the extent that Humans are offshoots of Chimpanzees.

They share a common ancestor in the Ehlnofey, who split into the Wandering Ehlnofey and the Old Ehlnofey. The Old Ehlnofey settled Aldmeris, which would later be known as Tamriel (or something along those lines). The Wandering Ehlnofey settled Atmora, Yokuda and Akavir (though they done got ate up at Akavir).

3. Losing is fun, and they all Lost in the most spectacular way possible. All of them in the world simply vanished. Poof. They poofed themselves out of existence, and it was very likely related to their own Megaproject, something no dwarf of ours has ever come close to...

4. Numidium, the name of their megaproject. What it essentially is is a massive golem so powerful it's effectively an artificial god, powered by the heart of a dead god of creation. It's so powerful merely activating it causes reality to BREAK APART. It's pretty agreed on that the Dwemer vanished because they were trying to achieve godhood, and they might have done it by fusing themselves with the Numudium as its skin. That or they poofed themselves out of reality by realising they were in a video game, but that's another thing entirely.

3. No. They didn't lose. Hell, I'd say they won, considering what Numidium was for and where they all ended up.

4. That is not what CHIM is. It has never been what CHIM is. It is not even related to what CHIM is. The Dwemer did not disappear for zero-summing, they became the golden skin of Numidium.

As an example of how ridiculous it is, when a human emperor used it to lay siege to the capital of the elves which had resisted everything else he threw at them before, they had to surrender within minutes. And even then, because of how the Numidium messes with space and time just by being turned on, it's still attacking them from alternate dimensions even when the siege itself was hundreds of years ago. The elves have to send their most powerful mages into these alternate dimensions just to fend it off, and even then it manages to slip a little by every now and then to cause more mayhem. It will continue to attack for at minimum a few hundred years more. The same Emperor who used it later became a god himself.

Talos actually became a God before using Numidium, or rather, at the exact moment he activated it. The Enantiomorph event combined with his extremely close association with Wulfharth (Wulfharth is the reason he's called "Stormcrown") caused the Dragon Break at Numidium's activation to make the world's idea of him become what he is.

Note especially that Numidium's return from fighting Mirror Logicians is called "Landfall" and messes Tamriel up so badly that there is at least one letter (The Loveletter from the Fifth Era) and at least one robot (PELINAL) who are sent back in time to prevent it.

Kaiser Reinhard

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3. No. They didn't lose. Hell, I'd say they won, considering what Numidium was for and where they all ended up.

4. That is not what CHIM is. It has never been what CHIM is. It is not even related to what CHIM is. The Dwemer did not disappear for zero-summing, they became the golden skin of Numidium.

Talos actually became a God before using Numidium, or rather, at the exact moment he activated it. The Enantiomorph event combined with his extremely close association with Wulfharth (Wulfharth is the reason he's called "Stormcrown") caused the Dragon Break at Numidium's activation to make the world's idea of him become what he is.

Note especially that Numidium's return from fighting Mirror Logicians is called "Landfall" and messes Tamriel up so badly that there is at least one letter (The Loveletter from the Fifth Era) and at least one robot (PELINAL) who are sent back in time to prevent it.

I haven't found anything conclusive saying that they were fused into Numidium's skin. So far the explanation that they all collectively zero-summed seems just as likely likely. Weren't there dwemer clans that disagreed with the ones in Morrowind and moved away? If the information required to zero-sum was forced into their minds, it would explain why they were affected too.

And, well, it was the simplest way of putting it, I'm aware that's not what CHIM is

Isn't the earliest example of Tiber Septim using his powers as Talos right after the siege of Alinor, where he transforms Cyrodiil's 'endless jungle' into lush woodlands with engine limitations CHIM? I wasn't sure when the exact moment of his apotheosis was.

And yeah, speaking of Pelinal Whitestrake, another hero to dwarfkind for his mass elf genocides. Though I wouldn't call him a 'robot' in the mechanical sense, more like a programmed demigod being with exterminate elf commands in his head of some kind.
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Putnam

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Pelinal is a robot in every sense of the world, though built on magic and divinity instead of mechanisms.

Anyway, Final Report to Trebonius comes to the skin conclusion, to which Kirkbride said something along the lines of "that's exactly it".

Talos's exact moment of learning CHIM is unknown and his changing of Cyrodiil to jungle is in a pretty vague location. CHIM isn't the only reason he's a God; he had, oh, three other methods on him.

Kaiser Reinhard

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Pelinal is a robot in every sense of the world, though built on magic and divinity instead of mechanisms.

Anyway, Final Report to Trebonius comes to the skin conclusion, to which Kirkbride said something along the lines of "that's exactly it".

Talos's exact moment of learning CHIM is unknown and his changing of Cyrodiil to jungle is in a pretty vague location. CHIM isn't the only reason he's a God; he had, oh, three other methods on him.

It's explicitly stated that's how he did it by Mankar Camoran, though. Then again he could be just a crazy cultist since he couldn't even get the Oblivion planes right, though I heard that was a dev mistake. What were his other ways? Mantling, and?

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Putnam

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No, Talos definitely did that. Note that Heimskr says it, too. The when is the important part.

He mantled, enantiomorphed, broke the dragon, underwent soul combination and used CHIM.

Sergarr

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No, Talos definitely did that. Note that Heimskr says it, too. The when is the important part.

He mantled, enantiomorphed, broke the dragon, underwent soul combination and used CHIM.
I call hax.
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Keldane

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Please forgive the somewhat off-topic comment, and I feel like I am really lacking the information required to fully understand this discussion. Is most of this discussed in-game? Where would I find the books/which quests in which Elder Scrolls?
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thvaz

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Please forgive the somewhat off-topic comment, and I feel like I am really lacking the information required to fully understand this discussion. Is most of this discussed in-game? Where would I find the books/which quests in which Elder Scrolls?

Mostly at the books in game. Elder Scrolls' games don't know how to convey their awesome lore with quests, as most of the quests are slight variations of fetch this/kill that .
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Dyret

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Yeah, I don't quite get how someone as good at world-building as Bethesda can be so bad at actually telling their story. I mean, writing is writing, right?
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