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[Comrade P.]

I can see where it could be seen as separatism, but it really all boils down to organization. Piecewise's game is so large it takes several ongoing threads, and even more will spring up as the current group fragments further, not to mention the lack of a dedicated out-of-character thread that some have been proposing.

Consider Roll To Dodge itself. It's a forum game genre, but eventually there were too many of them - the entire front page of FG&RP was nothing but RTDs. To organize them better and to allow players of other games - that might not like them, or care about them - they were moved off to a separate forum. They aren't "better", and they weren't moved just for the sake of making a new forum - they were just too many, and they were interfering with what others were doing.

I didn't like this idea in the first place. If all the forumgames were in one big pile, nothing bad would really happen, that is what I think. A bit of chaos, of course, but a proper work of moderator placing inactive games in some kind of archieve could solve even that.

Let's put it another way. Einsteinian Roulette is currently spread across three threads. Ship thread, Mission thread, Secondary mission thread. Like it or not, it's going to need at least two more once the current story arc is complete. Tinker, and Hephaestus mission threads. Maybe an OOC thread. They are, barring brief hiatuses and Sundays, all going to be updated daily, with the entire crew of thirty-something players and the GM all posting in them. That's five/six threads continuously hovering on the first page of the RTD forum. For just one game. It may not seem like much, in the overall thread count, but that's the question then - are you more okay with one game having its five/six threads constantly hovering near the top than with making a separate subforum to put that game, and perhaps games like it if they appear, into?

So, it is all up to "We need more space to have our own subforum with blackjack and hookers piecewise and missions" (that was not intended to be offencive, and if it did, I beg your pardon). I say that I see no actual reason for that. I'm not confused with having Einsteinean Roulette threads on the frony page of RtD constantly, and I see no reason for someone to be.

[Tack]

I wouldn't mind this, but I figure it's for all the people who Don't play ER, rather than the ones who Do.
Especially if we manage to get a 'New people look here' sticky. With the catch-ups and links and such.

Although I guess it's harder not metagaming when you know what's happened.

[smurfingtonthethird]

Wait, wouldn't an ER subforum be a subforum of RTD, which is a subforum of Forum games?

[Harry Baldman]

Consider Roll To Dodge itself. It's a forum game genre, but eventually there were too many of them - the entire front page of FG&RP was nothing but RTDs. To organize them better and to allow players of other games - that might not like them, or care about them - they were moved off to a separate forum. They aren't "better", and they weren't moved just for the sake of making a new forum - they were just too many, and they were interfering with what others were doing.

I find it kind of interesting that now the RTD board is the less active, less frequently updating part of FG&RP.

But yes, I suppose I am in favor of a subboard, though my opinion in this case doesn't count for much, given how it's coming from a player. It would make me a bit queasy to have a specific ER subboard, though. A multi-thread RTD subboard, though, that I could definitely live with. Although I don't exactly remember any RTDs aside from ER spanning multiple threads... yeah, I don't think that would work, either. A multi-thread FG subboard, though, that could work. It could also introduce new players to ER.

[IronyOwl]

I'm in favor of it. Most games get by with one thread; larger, more formal, or just more organized ones use an IC and OOC thread.

ER, meanwhile, is currently pushing half a dozen rapidly updated and frequently used threads. It's just on an entirely different scale than just about anything else we've got.

Mmm, done quite too much thinking on this. Piecewise, and probably anyone else pointing towards a subforum (subboard, is a much better term): Propose that it not be named something like the Einsteinian Roulette board, but as a category for RTDs which have such characteristics as novel-esque plots and multiple players.

Being the new curator of the RTD Library, the idea sprouted when I did my own work on the origins of the RtD: it's a forum-spinoff of tabletop games (Yes Sean, thanks for the leads You're awesome. Also, this page {tvtropes link} needs to reflect the origins, methinks. ). Meaning, that in order to not cross the line of specificity (personally? I think the quality of ER dropped given some players-with bargains struck to favor an imbalance between new and old but that's just my insight. *stares at the Doctor.* Though I'm not saying ER is bad. Noooo. :p The perseverance and dedication of the GM is something to aspire to..sans some jokes of his. :I But that's just me! ) or to give the notion that 'ER IS BEST RTD OVERALL', I ask to move for a more generalized board for these types of RTDs.

I'm supporting this proposal, of course. Just not making it explicit for one single RTD. Because that in itself offsets others who have high ambitions, and in making it generalized-it provides the space for future-RTDs of such magnitude to thrive in their own environment.

This is too vague for my tastes. An ER-only section has an explicit purpose- making ER easier to manage. A "novel-ish RTD" section is kind of hazy and serves the function this was originally brought up for only tangentially.

A distinction based on scale sounds good. Name the section "The Grand RTD Hall", and move any games large enough to require sectioning and organization into there. Of course, "large enough" may be subjective... it's not determined by size alone. A huge thread with a game like Multiworld Madness, for instance, even if it were akin to ER in size, would not require being moved - it's contained in one thread. ER is a game with large scale, and I see no other games of its kind around right now - a game with a mass of players that function in separate environments and at separate timescales, thus outright requiring being split apart into several individual threads, that progress at the same time. Not an IC/OOC split, but threads where the game progresses simultaneously.

I'd say if your game starts to grow beyond three equally important, regularly updated threads, it could be considered for moving into the Grand Hall.

And, of course, creating the subforum, whether as a Grand Hall or an Einsteinian Roulette section, has my full support. ^_^

The issue I have with this is that we've only got one of them and we've no particular reason to believe we'll be getting more any time soon. It seems strange to me to have a "Grand RTDs" section when the definition of a Grand RTD is "this game" or so bizarre that it's unlikely anyone else will ever use it. I'd rather just call a sentient space plague a sentient space plague at that point.

I didn't like this idea in the first place. If all the forumgames were in one big pile, nothing bad would really happen, that is what I think. A bit of chaos, of course, but a proper work of moderator placing inactive games in some kind of archieve could solve even that.

I think there's some merit to separating things out just for the sake of keeping them in reasonably-sized chunks. I'll agree that the distinction between RTDs and "other" forum games isn't always a particularly useful or informative one, but I still think it's convenient to have two boards with some common qualities, each of which moves half as quickly as they would in one big pile.

Wait, wouldn't an ER subforum be a subforum of RTD, which is a subforum of Forum games?

At which point we'll need an OOC subforum for our ER subforum of the RTD subforum.

In any case, I believe the forum can handle nested subforums well. Well, mechanically well; I guess the social implications don't always work out so nicely.

[Toaster]

I think the best thing to do is to come up with a set of objective, subject-agnostic rules for what constitutes a need for a subforum.  That way, we can have a set of guidelines that are there for everyone to see, and it can be obvious what qualifies, whether we're looking at a huge RTD, someone's DF mod, a set of threads on General Discussion, or what have you.

[Tack]

The question you've got to ask is: How many thread is ER looking to end up having?

Because if it has a large enough amount that it's cluttering up the front page of RTD, then I guess it should get one just as a matter of courtesy.

[GreatWyrmGold]

No, you do it one update at a time.

What about the OOC chatter? Don't tell me it wouldn't be hilarious to see what that argument about the giant robot would be like if argued by stereotypical gangtas.

As for the proposal itself, I vote against. Not like I'm agruing with piecewise or anything, but I just do not like separatism in any forms, from mild to extreme. It somehow makes me think that in a year or maybe even earlier you'll decide "Hey, we are a big enough community to have a forum of our own!", and I enjoy even reading piecewise's games and do not want to let bay12 lose such a member.
Of course I may be mistaken in that.

Slippery slope fallacy. Thank you for playing.
(Besides, piecewise has tons of other games that wouldn't be moved. Probably.)

I didn't like this idea in the first place. If all the forumgames were in one big pile, nothing bad would really happen, that is what I think. A bit of chaos, of course, but a proper work of moderator placing inactive games in some kind of archieve could solve even that.

Reread that. RtD's were popular and frequently-posted-in enough that the rest of the FGaR folks were complaining, so they got moved. And inactive games, by definition, weren't a problem in this equation.

Wait, wouldn't an ER subforum be a subforum of RTD, which is a subforum of Forum games?

And?

At which point we'll need an OOC subforum for our ER subforum of the RTD subforum.

Slippery slope fallacy. Thank you, come again.

The question you've got to ask is: How many thread is ER looking to end up having?

Because if it has a large enough amount that it's cluttering up the front page of RTD, then I guess it should get one just as a matter of courtesy.

Potentially around six. That's about a third of the front page IIRC, although they might not all be at the front so maybe only a quarter.


If we do do a "Grand RtD" subforum or the like, with a solid definition of what makes an RtD "grand," I think it would encourage people to make new "grand" RtD's. After all, I myself probably would never have played in or GM'd a Roll to Dodge game if it hadn't been for the subforum...and that didn't have an exclusive subforum or a nice positive connotation to it.

[Tack]

Slippery slope fallacy. Thank you, come again.

I like to call it the 'camel-nose dilemma', after the Tao of Pratchett.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Slippery slope fallacy. Thank you, come again.

I like to call it the 'camel-nose dilemma', after the Tao of Pratchett.

Google-Fu has failed me. Huh?

[Harry Baldman]

Google-Fu has failed me. Huh?

As far as I know, the 'camel-nose dilemma' goes something like 'you should not let a camel poke its nose in your tent, lest you soon have an entire camel inside it'.

[Radio Controlled]

I am in favor of a subboard, but against a dedicated ER one, for reasons stated elsewhere. I'd personally just make it a 'long games and multithread games' thing, where we set up some sort of threshold for having a game moved to that section from the main RTD section. To pull a number out of my nether regions: games with 7500+ replies (all threads total) or 3+ threads get moved there. It would also ensure that newer games get more time in the spotlight.

Another reason not to make it a PW- or ER- centered thing: suppose we do that, and two weeks in he gets hit by a truck or a segway or something. Or, for a less gruesome example, he finds his true purpose in life and runs off to the Appalachian Mountains to become a goat herder. So then we have an empty subboard clogging things up and being useless while he is off getting skin grafts/riding goats, whereas making it a general subforum wouldn't have that problem. And the Toadster said that he isn't promising anything after some incident with personalized subthreads in another part of the forum, whereas this would merely be for keeping things more organized, something he would (I think) have far less objections to.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Google-Fu has failed me. Huh?

As far as I know, the 'camel-nose dilemma' goes something like 'you should not let a camel poke its nose in your tent, lest you soon have an entire camel inside it'.

There's a Russian saying that seems to be equivalent, about not letting a pig sit at a table lest you want the pig's feet propped up on the table, but that is more about the consequences of letting rude or inconsiderate people into your company.

[Comrade P.]

There's a Russian saying that seems to be equivalent, about not letting a pig sit at a table lest you want the pig's feet propped up on the table, but that is more about the consequences of letting rude or inconsiderate people into your company.

That makes me think both my english and russian suck, because I do not remember how it is said.

Anyway, GWG wants to say I'm incompetent on this topic and should fuck off, and that makes actual sense. Quite newfaggy on bay12 I am.

[WhitiusOpus]

I'm in favor if giving ER it's own sub forum, personally, but I like Radio Controlled's idea. I think if we make a sub forum where the threshold, is, for example, 10k responses, or like RC said, 3+ threadsthen it should be moved to its own section. It may make things a little more clogged for ER than if it had its own subforum, but it would solve the social dilemmas of people being biased towards ER and saying 'what the hell, so if if PW gets special treatment, why can't I?' Deal. I know, I know, PW does actually deserve it, but you just can't argue with some people.