..Lars didn't get a specific sense of danger. For all we know, the danger sensed was not just on the one floor.
If the danger wasn't a danger to him, then why'd he get a warning?
...Words fail me.
I know~! My arguments are just marvelous!
...I'm trying to understand your logic. You think that us, distracted by such things as breaking out or not getting molten metal dripped on us, getting attacked when the UWM decides to, leaves us a better chance of survival than attacking enemies unaware that we know they're there and hence getting the drop on them.That's just stupid. First off, we'd be distracted. Second off, they'd get the first shots. Third off, they probably have excellent anti-personal weapons, up to and including fun little toys called grenades which could kill all of us at once.
Oh, yeah, sure, they're unaware of us, and we could get the drop on
them, at
their ambush location. That makes total sense.
I also wonder why you think that they would have an advantage if they're trying to beat down the wall? I mean, if they started we would have plenty of time to stop cutting out and get ready for them. And then we can shoot through whatever holes they make, as they make them, and we'd have the initiative; they can't aim gun through holes as they smash the holes open, anyways.
Also, it's going to take time tp break the door down in any case. And while they try, they are guaranteed to be within a few feet of the door; easy targets for any amper.
I told what I honestly believed the truth to be. Rest in piece.
But you were wrong, and stated the incorrect information- that is misinformation; you lied.
You point? Technically, we have many places we could probably go! (If cutting through the elevator wall and then the elevator shaft wall didn't take up too much of our resources, kill us, or lead to us being killed by the UWM.) But once we're out...well, we're out of the frying pan, into a frying pan that wasn't being quite so heavily watched until we flopped over into it.
They are not going to 'heavily watch' every corridor and room aboard the ship as heavily as the bridge. They wouldn't even be able to keep track of us for long, because if we sprinted out of the elevator we'd quickly pass enough interesctions that we could be anywhere.
Also, why would we have to cut a hole in the elevator to run away? We could simply tell it to go to the floor we want to be at.
1. Fast? Cutting through metal walls with heat is slow. You either need to wait for the metal to melt (and avoid getting any on you), or grab one of those hull-cutters, which are fairly slow.
You know physics law zero? It states that everything behaves just as it should according to natural laws, unless the GM says otherwise.
We've cut threw plenty of walls with heat, quite quickly. Anyways, we could just cut a circle of heat and push it out of the way if it's really a problem.
2. Effective? Sure, it's good at cutting through walls. However, we won't necessarily be in a better position; in fact, we probably won't be. What rooms do you expect to be adjacent to an elevator shaft? The target room, other elevators, maybe a random room very close to the elevator (but probably not close, if this elevator if like the ones I'm familiar with).
Rooms that probably don't have an armed sod squad aiming at the door?
3. Unpredictable? If the people don't come out for a while, what else are they going to think we're doing? A puzzle?
They'll have no idea what we're doing. They might not even know we have space magic. And if they're sods, what are they gonna do? Call command and tell them that nobody came out of the elevator?
4. Undetectable? Haha, no. Any method of breaching the walls is going to create a lot of heat, for one. Any smart ship designer (assuming available resources to allocate to it, and the UWM has the resources) would include something to let them detect breaches of the hull or walls, so everyone could know about it even if they were on the other side of the ship. It's kind of important to know which rooms might be exposed to the vacuum of space, neh? And even if they don't have those sensors, the chance of them not seeing the hole is very slightly greater than the chance of breaking into an adjacent elevator.
Why would all the heat matter? Do they have a bunch of thermal sensors everywhere for some reason?
The UWM hasn't necessarily adhered to good ship design. For all we know they might just let those rooms drain of atmosphere, and just put pressure sensors on all standard doors so that they can't open.
So we can get the first shot, maybe find a way past them.
Okay... Think about this. If we open the door, how many possible situations will just get us killed? How many will we have a chance, but might live? Now, how many of those named situations will still get us killed if we go up a floor and take a different path?
It's endangered users other times, too. For instance, when it's failed.And overshots can happen to anyone.
So... when they ended up not using it? And overshots are only bad for the person when they're doing something dangerous to begin with, like melting an arm that was welded to your head off. Or melting the floor of the elevator you're standing in. Accidentally overshooting when you're trying to kill someone just makes you overkill them.
I'm a biologist, not a tactician!
...You're a biologist? As in, proffessional? What does that even entail?
Do you demand your doctor provide a summary of the reasons that the Rapa Nui society collapsed before you're convinced he's qualified to operate on you?
If he's cutting out Moai that have inexplicably began growing from my spleen, then yes I do.
And like I said, there is no reason to think that the commander isn't there!
Except that he might have better things to do than sit around guarding an elevator with some sods.
More importantly, the terms of your promise are horribly biased towards you. We don't actually know what the sod commander said...but you know what I said, so if you can find one out-of-the-box thing to do, you still declare yourself the winnar.
Oh, come on, it should be easy enough to come up with something. You've already said I'm a terrible tactician. Plus, you get lots of chances and see where your mistakes are. You're in a far better position than a UWM commander.
Also, I like how you didn't call out the bit where I said "In the next few days". Already resigned to this, I see.
"Until I say otherwise, shoot anyone that comes out of the elevators. Also shoot anyone that attacks you, approaches the bridge, or causes damage to the ship until I say otherwise. Until I say otherwise, throw grenades into any new holes you see being cut or blown in a wall."
What if they cut an eyehole in the door and stick a helmetcam in front of it? Too small for the grenade to go through, and nobody is actually coming closer or out of the elevator.
Sods suddenly die of melted brain syndrome.
They think we're rogue agents, of a sort. They thought we were a planetary rebellion, but now we've shown we're something more. There's an HMRC ship that refueled right before they lost communications with the planet. Using those anti-rogue-agent tactics should be expected.
Except, those "anti-rogue-agent tactics" are designed for individuals blending into crowds. Not an actual organized force to fight. Plus, these people have pretty much expected to never ever ever have to fight boarders- they're a planetary defense force.
Wrong. You're saying we could drop into the middle of the sods and, as long as we don't obviously attack them, which means that (if we had a Monopoly board), we could play Monopoly without the sods reacting. It's a bit of a simplification (other things would react before the first player was eliminated), but I was trying to make a point.
Oh. Well yes, if the commander didn't put much thought into it, we
could drop down and play monopoly among the sods. They wouldn't see anythig wrong with that.
Are you saying a sod commander should tell the sods to shoot anyone who tries to play monopoly? You really hate that game, don't you?
Oh, they'll need rolls. But they can charge dynamic bonuses if we don't act, and there are a lot of them, and they get the first shot instead of us.
They can only charge a +1 at best, a mechanic which I dislike. Except sods, who just always get fives in combat.
Anyways, they should have had plenty of time to charge a dynamic bonus for shooting whoever came out of the elevator. Do you think they were only dispatched once we got into it?
Forgot to mention, I was being ore figurative than literal.
So you were using incorrect arguments to win? Cheater!
Because A. we wouldn't know it was the best plan without thinking about it and B. if he didn't warn us, we would have calmly opened the door and been faced with a number of angry sods, rather than being able to spend a couple seconds preparing an ambush before actually opening the doors and attacking.
Then why did you suggest the worst thing that had happened was Lars keeping the door closed?
Getting the first shot, I'd like to make clear.
Except you wouldn't get the first shit. You'd die, because they are almost certainly spread out more than you people who're tightly packed in an elevator.
Again: We'd bet the initiative,
I don't want gamble on my chances of getting the initiative.
and they'd likely be throwing grenades at us or something if we screw around inside the elevator.
Uh-huh. They'll throw the grenades
so hard, that they go right through the elevator door. And they won't throw them at usf we open the door, because they would be breaking their vows of mook chivalry.
Yes. I've missed every time. And that was aiming at targets that I knew exactly where they were.
I take it you haven't had much practice. I mean, my point was that it's hard, but
every time?
I only hit when I actually aim at the target--
Oohhh, you're talking about shooting from the hip. Only people who have had a lot of training can do that, and even then only at close ranges.
I'm talking about raising the rifle to your shoulders, aiming, and firing, as quickly as you can.
I and if the target is on the other side of the non-glass door, I'll need to aim after the door opens, not before.
Incorrect. You'll need to
adjust your aim. By moving the gun a few millimeters. Which is done a lot faster than the whole shouldering-aiming-firing process.
And you're doing it against people who have to sweep
a whole room to find their target. Moving their gun across whole
feet. And who then have to aquire a prone target, and shoot before he shoots.
This, just being a scenario against humans. Against sods, who can take the wings off a fly from fifty meters, there's not much hope for you.
Raise weapons and prepare to aim and fire once the doors open.
You're not prone; your gun is less stable than their guns, and you're a larger target than them.
If you do go prone, then if they threw a grenade you're dead. You're not gonna be able to stand up AND shoot them AND get around the corner away from the 'nade.
In short: You're screwed either way. This is an impossible situation. An impossible situation which you
might be able to circumvent.
So, let me see if I understand this. You're saying that the one other team that advanced to an ambush position got ambushed, but none of the others did. And this points to useful central computers not being present...how?
If they had a central computer, they wouldn't have had to set the ambush up at the only obvious location. They would have been able to lock down your path and ambush you along the way, at a place you wouldn't have expected.
Not really. Certainly, the effects last longer--and to get a single door's control panel to affect all doors, somethingabout the way doors are controlled had to change...so changing other aspects isn't a possibility we can discount. Besides, "The doors all open, but five seconds later the central AI closes them all" isn't much of an overshot, and hence the overshot had to make that not happen.
Exactly. So the overshoot would have had to be something else.
It wasn't, therefore there's no AI.
You're forgetting something: It's better to shoot first than to be shot at when the enemy feels like it.
Well, the enemy feels like shooting us the moment they see us. They'll see us before we see them if we open the elevator.
If we open the elevator they'll shoot us.
I think we're going to be going into an infinite loop if I reply to that, so I'll ignore it.
Why would it go in an infinite loop? We'll die of old age before that happens. Or did you write a program that automatically argues with me? It'll still end when the universe ends/crunches, but could I have the source please?
I don't know and it doesn't matter.
"I don't know how my argument could make any sense, but it doesn't matter; you're wrong"
Because they know we'd be coming here.
And how did they know that? Is this the only entrance to the bridge? Did they only just move it when we got in the elevator?
Because they didn't find out long ago.
I would think they found out about when Lars shot the turret. That would give them plenty of time to lock the place down.
Why are any of these arguments promoting the idea of waiting?
They're poking holes in the opposing argument, that's why.
It's like the Creationists who say that the fossil record doesn't have transitional forms so evolution is wrong.
An apt description of
one side of this argument.
No...it really isn't. And like I said, we don't have good options. We're screwed. We're probably going to get killed no matter what we do. Getting the drop on them, maybe running through the squad of (probably rifle-wielding [best weapons for the job]
Stop right there!
Submachine gun would be more effective.
probably not crowded-in [that reduces effectiveness and efficiency]) sods...better chance than cutting through a wall and simultaneously hoping that the UWM does nothing and that we end up somewhere better.
Let's count situations, and their possible solutions. A=open door, B=melt wall & run
1.Sod commander & Sods
1A.You get shot, some of you die. Only really stand a chance because PW doesn't like putting you in hopeless situations
1B.You start cutting; commander gets nervous. After a minute he sends some sods break the door.
1B1.You were slow, and are still inside. As the sod starts banging you ready your weapons. He breaks a hole; you shoot blindly through it, killing him. You open the door before they toss a grenade in, and are slightly better off than 1A.
1B2.You're already gone. The sods break in, only to see a hole in the back. The commander can either give chase (abandoning his post) or sit tight(letting you go free).
2.Just sods
2A.same as 1A
2B.Sods ignore noise, you escape easily.
3.Hell-death cannon 9000, not set up yet, but defended by sods
3A.A little bit better than 1A, but not much.
3B.You escape. Cannon's set up... facing an empty elevator.
4.Hell-death cannon 9000, set up.
4A.You die.
4B.You escape.
Now, not knowing whether the situation is 1,2,3, or 4, what do you do? A or B?
We're going to need to face them no matter what.
Unless we bypass them.
And again, there's no reason to think that the other side of the wall is any less sod-filled...unless we open a hole between two elevator shafts.
If you were a commander, would you post sods in every room that both had a floor and shared a wall with the elevator? Are you seriously that worried about people coming down to the floor that likely has an ambush, and
then cutting through the wall?
1. It's typical for the SWAT team to have more information than "There is something dangerous on the other side of the door."
Oh, they have lota of information. They know if it's a meth lab, probably know about a few of the criminals, have a rough idea how many people are probably there, maybe a floorplan(which they use as a rough guideline- criminals change the floorplan too often to rely on it), but as far as actual tactical data on opposition? Not much. They don't know if the people have SMGs, rifles, pistols, shotguns, whatever. They don't know if there's a guy watching the door with a rifle drawn.
2. Also because we are three people with assorted rifles, as opposed to well-trained officers with "special weapons" such as flashbangs and tasers.
Y'know, you've reminded me: they don't really want to use lethal force. We're fine with slaughtering everyone. So we've got an advantage there.
(Okay, maybe that's less special, but I'd still bet it'd take down a sod better than a rifle; the exact hit location matters less.)
HAHA No. A sod is genetically engineered to be a good soldier; resistance to electricity would be a given. And when you're shooting it with a
20mm hit location starts to matter much less. You know how, in movies, when people get shot they tend to get holes blown in them, and get knocked over? Usually, that's extaggeration. Not with a 20mm.
3. Three, actually.
Oh, okay then, that reinforces my point.
4. I very much doubt that.
Fine then, define preperation. I'm defining it as 'stuff you can do in the few minutes you have before actually breaching the room'.
And you don't know that. Occam's Razor. It's simpler that amps work anywhere in the brain, so without reason to think they don't...especially if your best guess involves some flavor of "space magic pixie dust"...
...And it's even simpler to just say there's a universal amp that does it all.
...I'm not sure what you're talking about or why it's relevant.
The argument I joined on April Fool's about immortality. Basically, ir was the exact same as this argument, just with a completely different topic.
Done and explained.
There's others. One'll pop up eventually, and I'll point it out then.
Notice how we're not a militia being attacked in a few weeks, but rather a bunch of people in an elevator going to be attacked inside of five minutes.
Yes, but you were still talking about something that can be very important as if it were irrelevant.
I care about it when it's relevant. In the context of an analogy, it really isn't.
But not caring about it makes your analogy weird, which is really bad. Technically, gravity doesn't affect the taste of bananas. But if I make an analogy involving the taste of bananas in zero-g, is that really a good analogy?
And they tend to suffer massive casualty rates, almost always losing when they lack enough of a large numerical advantage that they'd have decent odds if their only weapons were those they stole from the enemy.
No, they've done well when they still needed to be given guns. Anyways, this is irrelevant to my point that there ARE militaries that do that. They exist!
"Being trained to say 'kill that guy'" is the equivalent of rifle training consisting of being told which end the bullets come out of, or officer training consisting of ten minutes of practicing a scary voice. Will it work? Technically. Will it work well? No.
Here's a strawman! You completely changed my statement by removing the word "when". Being trained
when to say "kill that guy" is the equivalent of being told where to shoot, what position to shoot from, whether to shoot, ect. And the Officer equivalent of being trained when to give orders, when to accept advice, when to say "shut up and do as I say". Not the full course by a long shot, but a pretty important component.
And I highly doubt that sod commanders act as you do. After all, normal officers don't--
The point is that they
can, without any loss in effectiveness. And normal officers have to be there in person, because it's easier for a guy to follow orders from that fearless guy right there rather than the angry voice in their ear.
why would sods be different? Since they completely lack initiative, they'd need to be in the field more than normal-troop commanders do!
...You don't even know what a sod commander is. Seriously. At least be familiar with the topic before you argue it.
...and it's done. They're all gone.
It's always sad when they're gone.
Author
Topic: Einsteinian Roulette: OOC and NEW PLAYER INFO (Read 2356639 times)