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Author Topic: BoundWorlds: Legendary Dungeons (A Zelda-inspired dungeon creating package)  (Read 95220 times)

IndigoFenix

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2014, 01:57:56 pm »

I was thinking it could be based on time.  The more time people spend in a world, the more coins the world's builder receives, but only if they leave through a regular gate, to discourage dead ends.  Perhaps, to encourage linking to new worlds, the builder also gets a little extra if the player leaves to a world that they haven't visited yet in the session...

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IndigoFenix

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2014, 05:16:48 pm »

There was a bug with creating new worlds, but it's fixed now, and with a new feature included: a basic default room that includes a few simple objects (including pushable blocks, collectable coins, wandering NPCs, and an exit) to get you started.  Remember, you must reload the cache (ctrl+F5) to use the new features.

Retropunch

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #79 on: May 11, 2014, 12:11:29 pm »

I was thinking it could be based on time.  The more time people spend in a world, the more coins the world's builder receives, but only if they leave through a regular gate, to discourage dead ends.  Perhaps, to encourage linking to new worlds, the builder also gets a little extra if the player leaves to a world that they haven't visited yet in the session...

That's a really good idea! Possibly some advanced timing/logic could cut down on exploitation.
For instance, it's probably a good idea to only give the WB coins if the player spends over a certain (arbitrary, i'd say about 30 seconds at least) length in the map, to stop them placing the portal opposite the start one. There's also the problem with the player potentially just going off to do something else and leaving the session open, and then the WB getting loaaaads of coins. Possibly it could be recorded on steps traveled/actions taken?

Also, How about only letting the WB place NPCs with enough coins? They could have enough for 2-3 npcs to start with on each map, but it'd be a great incentive to build up coins.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #80 on: May 11, 2014, 12:54:41 pm »

Part of the problem with making everything have a price is that BW is a lot more editable and programmable than most world building games.  For example, if every NPC has a cost, what is the cost of an object that generates a constant stream of NPCs?  If many objects have to interact in order to function, limiting their placement could be frustrating to builders.  Trying to make estimates of room structure based on the position of the entrance and the exit might suffice for simple rooms, but throw in teleports, jumps, and non-euclidean geometry and all that goes out the window.  Then there's the little fact that a world builder can, if they want, directly edit the coin variable and give a player 10000 coins instantly.  Or subtract coins.  Or multiply them!  Although this can be dealt with by placing rules on the number of coins that a player can actually take from a world.

Anyway, there's still time to experiment and see what works.  But yeah, using steps/actions as a way of determining time spent is a good idea.

Retropunch

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2014, 01:11:47 pm »

I think it's a tricky balance really, you want to give world builders freedom, but with too much freedom it doesn't become much of a game.
Possibly taking the coins out of anyone's direct control would be best (other than perhaps having a limited number of secrets/other coin enhances for you to put down for the player). The WB could get more access to higher level stuff the more people go through their world. You could build up some nice lore with this as well if you wanted to.

It depends how you want to take it, and I do understand your wish for it to be a story-world sandbox where it's all about experiencing loads of different worlds and stories, but I still feel it needs some more goals/aims for the player to strive for and the only way to do this is to make some things finite.
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Armok

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2014, 07:52:41 pm »

Has anyone considered this coins-to-build system might simply be a bad idea? You want as many people to build as good worlds as possible, and placing a cost on it discourages it. What you *want* to happen is for the exploration part to be more gamey and have costs, and the building system being a way to grind it. What about this; building is free, you get a coin (or gem, since you'll probably have just a few), whenever someone chose to link a portal to your world from theirs. The gems can be gifted, or they can be spent for some permanent variable change in a specific world (typically represented as buying an item), in which case the creator of that world get it.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2014, 11:37:55 pm »

Has anyone considered this coins-to-build system might simply be a bad idea? You want as many people to build as good worlds as possible, and placing a cost on it discourages it. What you *want* to happen is for the exploration part to be more gamey and have costs, and the building system being a way to grind it. What about this; building is free, you get a coin (or gem, since you'll probably have just a few), whenever someone chose to link a portal to your world from theirs. The gems can be gifted, or they can be spent for some permanent variable change in a specific world (typically represented as buying an item), in which case the creator of that world get it.

I am by no means certain about the cost-to-build idea.  The principle is best explained by the Zero Punctuation review for Minecraft, which, in a nutshell, suggests that the reason why Minecraft is more popular than, say, Cube (a multiplayer first-person shooter with a very flexible and simple world building system) is that when you give people a limited resource for building that they have to work to obtain (i.e. blocks), they will be more inclined to make use of it for at least creating something (since they don't want all that hard work to go to waste), and the feeling of accomplishment for creating a massive or elaborate structure is much greater than if they can just build it for free, so more people will be inclined to do it.

On the other hand, BoundWorlds isn't Minecraft, the foundation of the program is not oriented toward giving building a cost, and I am not certain that this rather counter-intuitive theory would hold true in it's case.  However, seeing as how BW has been online for months now and I can still count the number of people actually building worlds on one hand, I'm looking for anything I can do to make more casual builders interested.

What am I missing here?  What is the main barrier to entry?

IndigoFenix

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2014, 12:04:26 pm »

New update: Random motion has been replaced with several possible behaviors.  Current options are random motion, pacing back and forth between walls, chasing the player, or avoiding the player.  So proper enemies and obstacles are now possible.

Arx

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2014, 12:21:23 pm »

The main barrier for me is that, even working off detailed references, I don't have enough time to do all the spriting I want in my world. It also doesn't help that I have no idea how many people see my world.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2014, 12:36:26 pm »

The main barrier for me is that, even working off detailed references, I don't have enough time to do all the spriting I want in my world. It also doesn't help that I have no idea how many people see my world.

To be fair, Arx, you DID make a pretty major undertaking, creating a world from scratch using imported graphics.  While the ability to do this IS one of the main selling points of BoundWorlds, there is already a decent set of ready-made graphics, and throwing together a simple set of rooms using the ready-made items, with possibly a few extras added on, shouldn't take much of an investment.  I'm not surprised at the lack of outstanding worlds so much as the lack of simple ones.

You'll be able to check on who views your world once I get the coin system set up, which will be around the same time that the item system is implemented.  I'm just not sure if I should focus on the item storage system (which only matters for returning players) or on more noticeable, simple options like custom AI, sound effects and scripting events that would get people interested in the first place.

Arx

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2014, 01:01:27 pm »

To be fair, Arx, you DID make a pretty major undertaking, creating a world from scratch using imported graphics.

That's a good point.

For the lack of worlds, you might want to make a topic in Other Games. It would attract more attention, and this is definitely fleshed out enough to count as a game (if not a completed one), but it's another thread to update.
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Retropunch

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2014, 01:43:26 pm »

New player registration isn't working for me?

I think one of the barriers to a wider audience is that you could do with an updated website. I know website stuff is a pain, but a big logo and some more main screen info/help/list of controls and so on would really help people that just come across it.

Overall, I really think it just needs more focus - as in, I feel you need to really figure out what you want to do with it and pull it more in that direction. At the moment it's kinda unclear what to do other than make a world with a few basic puzzles and some narration. If you want to go in the direction of exploration then there needs to be a reason to explore - just generally enjoying the environment only carries you so far. If you want to go into the world building thing then you definitely need limited resources/a way to collect them. I'm guessing you want a mix, but it definitely needs a much stronger direction.



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IndigoFenix

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Re: BoundWorlds: The Patchwork Universe Project: Seeking World Builders
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2014, 03:22:03 pm »

New player registration isn't working for me?

I think one of the barriers to a wider audience is that you could do with an updated website. I know website stuff is a pain, but a big logo and some more main screen info/help/list of controls and so on would really help people that just come across it.

Overall, I really think it just needs more focus - as in, I feel you need to really figure out what you want to do with it and pull it more in that direction. At the moment it's kinda unclear what to do other than make a world with a few basic puzzles and some narration. If you want to go in the direction of exploration then there needs to be a reason to explore - just generally enjoying the environment only carries you so far. If you want to go into the world building thing then you definitely need limited resources/a way to collect them. I'm guessing you want a mix, but it definitely needs a much stronger direction.

It's true - the website has not been updated in a long time.  Also registering is a little different than most registration systems, so having a little information to clarify that may be useful.

As for the focus...Ideally, the focus should be on creating elaborate worlds, even proper adventure games, that are all loosely connected with each other.  (I'm not sure, but I think the original idea that ultimately grew into BoundWorlds may have been heavily influenced by the Pendragon book series, which I was reading at around the time I began the project the first time).  The advanced functions are very flexible, you can already create travel-and-trading quests to find an item or defeat an enemy and then return for a reward or a victory cutscene.  There isn't any true 'save' feature yet (all 'items' are deleted when traveling to a new world), but with the persistent inventory system that will change.

But realistically, there will be very few people with the patience to actually put together adventure worlds with complicated plotlines, so I want there to be small 'satellite worlds' of simple puzzles that link the 'masterpiece' worlds together, or elaborate but pointless 'art projects' (in the style of Yume Nikki).  Since most players will at least start with these, I want it to be as easy as possible to ease into the world building system until someone gets the idea and motivation to create something more elaborate.
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