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Author Topic: TPP and TTIP  (Read 14193 times)

Sheb

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TPP and TTIP
« on: April 11, 2014, 05:23:12 am »

So the US government is currently negotiating two trade deals, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, with a bunch of Pacific nations including Canada, Australia, Japan and a bunch of others (but not China), and the Transatlantic Investment and Trade Partenership.

Both are being trumpeted as cheap and easy way to boost growth. However, they both have significant issue. I'm going to be bitching mostly about the TTIP here, being an European and all that, but we have a lot of non-European members here and many of the issues are common to both trade deals.

Now, at the core of the TTIP is the idea that since tariffs are already almost non-existent between the EU and US, the main barriers to trade are regulatory differences. This mean of course that any trade deal will have to infringe a lot on national sovereignty.

So in not particular orders, here is a rundown of some issues about the TTIP:

  • Transparency: Like most trade deals, the TTIP is being negotiated in secret. Up to a point this make sense: you can't negotiate anything if various interest groups bitch about it back home all the time. However, the fact that negotiators make frequent talks with businesses and business associations makes it feels like the secrecy is mostly a way to circumvent the democratic process.
  • Investor-State Dispute Settlement: Probably the single worse part of the TTIP. Created in the 70's with trade deals with developing countries to prevent expropriations, ISDS create private tribunal where corporations can sue states for any regulatory change that diminish their profit. Here is a list of similar cases under NAFTA and CAFTA successful cases include forcing Canada to re-allow a particular sort of toxic fuel additive or repelling a Mexican high-fructose corn-syrup tax.
  • Cheesy Name: The EU wants to force the US to accept its protections on names. Stuff like Champagne, Parmesan or Feta have to be produced in particular areas in the EU to be able to claim the name. Expanding this to the US would prevent US producers from making products using those names.
  • Internet Freedom: Copyright holders everywhere wants to use the TTIP to impose strict copyrights-protections schemes. Funnily enough, European activist blame the US government, while judging by GlyphGryph's posts somewhere, Americans think it's the European Commission's fault. Go figure.
  • Food Standards:Europe has generally higher food standard than the US. There has been a push by US producers to gets rid of EU regulations, from the ban on chlorinated chicken to GMOs.
  • Medicine and Patents: Europeans enjoy lower drug prices, in part due to healthcare system that weren't designed to screw everyone, but also in part due to saner patent laws. Of course, US Pharma companies push for regulatory change to screw us over
  • Cultural Protections: Many Europeans countries, most prominently France, have local or language content requirement for cultural products on TV and Radio. The US, a large exporter of such content is pushing to remove those protections.

This list is by no mean exhaustive, and as you can see, clearly show my European perspective on things. I'm interested in hearing points of views from across the Atlantic, as well as generally discussing those trade deals and what can be done to block them.
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XXSockXX

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 05:39:00 am »

There has been a study on attitudes about TTIP in the US and Germany. It concludes that while there is general support for it, there is also a lack of understanding and trust.

Some interesting results:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There seem to be some general doubts about the goals, everybody prefers their own standards, but Germans distrust American standards especially.

Also of note, the survey was conducted by TNS Emnid, Bielefeld, which must mean it is entirely fictional.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 05:58:10 am by XXSockXX »
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nenjin

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 09:46:13 am »

Everyone knows Bielefeld is fictional.
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freeformschooler

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 11:10:17 am »

  • Medicine and Patents: Europeans enjoy lower drug prices, in part due to healthcare system that weren't designed to screw everyone, but also in part due to saner patent laws. Of course, US Pharma companies push for regulatory change to screw us over

The rumbling you hear is every man in Denmark rushing out to stock up on free antidepressants.
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Sheb

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 11:12:11 am »

Well, they can still be free, it's just that the state will have to pay more for them.
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greatorder

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 11:20:32 am »

  • Medicine and Patents: Europeans enjoy lower drug prices, in part due to healthcare system that weren't designed to screw everyone, but also in part due to saner patent laws. Of course, US Pharma companies push for regulatory change to screw us over
I hope to god that doesn't go through. America's pharmaceutical companies are bad. Getting them (or their equivalent) over here would be terrible.

Still, given how it would make the governments pay more, I suspect it'll fail.
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Levi

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 11:27:14 am »

Well, good opportunity to post this comic explaining it  (Also features a giant robot).
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Flying Dice

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 01:57:14 pm »

The TPP, at least, already has substantial opposition even within the U.S. Congress. I think we might have a decent chance of stopping these treaties.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't inflict the U.S. pharma complex on my worst enemy.
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10ebbor10

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2014, 01:59:11 pm »

Well, yes, the US pharma complex is quite bad. I mean, for most things it's cheaper to go to Europe for all your hospital treatments rather than stay in the US. You can even add a small vacation to that and stay positive.
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greatorder

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 01:59:33 pm »

Inflict it on the US pharma complex!

Wait, they already have. They're thriving.
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Redzephyr01

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 03:11:18 pm »

For some reason, I thought this thread was going to be about Twitch Plays Pokemon.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2015, 01:20:29 pm »

Figured I'd revive this instead of starting a new one.
TPP's getting fast-tracked. Rev up those tweets & petitions.
And do a bit of googling if you haven't heard about it- this thing's been skirting under the radar as hard as it can.
Here, have this: https://www.stopfasttrack.com/
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Levi

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2015, 01:28:46 pm »

Heh, I saw a funny thread on reddit a while ago about TTP. 

Quote
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Can someone explain what tpp is?

No. That's why we're so upset.
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Bohandas

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Re: TPP and TTIP
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2015, 01:37:28 pm »


    • Investor-State Dispute Settlement: Probably the single worse part of the TTIP. Created in the 70's with trade deals with developing countries to prevent expropriations, ISDS create private tribunal where corporations can sue states for any regulatory change that diminish their profit. Here is a list of similar cases under NAFTA and CAFTA successful cases include forcing Canada to re-allow a particular sort of toxic fuel additive or repelling a Mexican high-fructose corn-syrup tax.
    • Internet Freedom: Copyright holders everywhere wants to use the TTIP to impose strict copyrights-protections schemes. Funnily enough, European activist blame the US government, while judging by GlyphGryph's posts somewhere, Americans think it's the European Commission's fault. Go figure.
    • Medicine and Patents: Europeans enjoy lower drug prices, in part due to healthcare system that weren't designed to screw everyone, but also in part due to saner patent laws. Of course, US Pharma companies push for regulatory change to screw us over


    As I've said before, these propositions are absolutely intolerable


    • Cheesy Name: The EU wants to force the US to accept its protections on names. Stuff like Champagne, Parmesan or Feta have to be produced in particular areas in the EU to be able to claim the name. Expanding this to the US would prevent US producers from making products using those names.

    This one I didn't know about. They're trying to force Europe's bullshit toponym protections on us too!? Goddamn it! That's insult on top of injury!


    • Food Standards:Europe has generally higher food standard than the US. There has been a push by US producers to gets rid of EU regulations, from the ban on chlorinated chicken to GMOs.

    This one's bad in principle, but I don't care about GMO labeling because I'm not a luddite.

    • Cultural Protections: Many Europeans countries, most prominently France, have local or language content requirement for cultural products on TV and Radio. The US, a large exporter of such content is pushing to remove those protections.

    This one I'm actually in favor of (thouh I'm still vehemently opposed to the agreement as a whole. To me it just sounds like the French are a bunch of racists (Imagine, if you will, how people would react to a similar law mandating English language content in America; people would rightly ascribe it to the lawmakers responsible being prejudiced against Hispanics)[/list]
    « Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 01:51:38 pm by Bohandas »
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    Sheb

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    Re: TPP and TTIP
    « Reply #14 on: June 29, 2015, 01:51:11 pm »

    Hey, you can't escape the cheese master race.
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    Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which donít yet.
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