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Author Topic: Why are Pants OP?  (Read 11133 times)

Playergamer

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 07:45:39 am »

Yeah, this is why I made a race without a skull.
Or vital organs.
Seriously, the only organ they really have is their eyes. Having a completely solid head prevents being pantsed to death.

What about making a race of sentient beards?
Naw, those horrible dwarves kill them and wear them around like trophies.
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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2014, 12:26:12 pm »

you would probably need a new tissue material
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2014, 12:57:54 pm »

I just ran the math, and a pair of reed trousers has combat numbers close to that of a pommel strike with a sword, or a punch. Your pants do have a weight of 4-5, depending on race. War hammers are far, far better than the above. War hammers are actually less heavy than trousers, but they have a good velocity mod.

There is a check for weapons to deflect if the weapon is made from a soft material, and the target layer (armor or tissue) is heavy. However this results in the armor having to weigh 60+ in order to deflect a pair of reed trousers.

Ironically, a pair of trousers does not even provide enough protection to stop an attack made with a pair of trousers.

Magistrum

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2014, 07:03:55 pm »

Man, clear those elf corpses, I can't see your profile pic!
Really? I thought that hitting them with trousers would be more effective than punches...
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Jack Smythe

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2014, 09:52:32 pm »

I wonder, does this weird lethal quality apply to all clothes and random junk? Are weapons like the least lethal thing in DF?

In other news, we really unlinked the danger room this time. Sidebar question: Is there any way to label stuff besides burrows? I keep hearing about people leaving notes on things, but have never figured out how.


That's a nice head you have on your shoulders!

Mount and Blade?
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blazing glory

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2014, 10:01:05 pm »

I wonder, does this weird lethal quality apply to all clothes and random junk? Are weapons like the least lethal thing in DF?

In other news, we really unlinked the danger room this time. Sidebar question: Is there any way to label stuff besides burrows? I keep hearing about people leaving notes on things, but have never figured out how.


That's a nice head you have on your shoulders!

Mount and Blade?

Well I don't know how other people do it but my friend does it by making mining designations without the miners having access to them,these designations are made into letters and then words,and yes,Mount and Blade
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Bumber

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2014, 10:51:55 pm »

I keep hearing about people leaving notes on things, but have never figured out how.
By using actual (N)otes?
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Melting Sky

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2014, 11:36:33 pm »

I just ran the math, and a pair of reed trousers has combat numbers close to that of a pommel strike with a sword, or a punch. Your pants do have a weight of 4-5, depending on race. War hammers are far, far better than the above. War hammers are actually less heavy than trousers, but they have a good velocity mod.

There is a check for weapons to deflect if the weapon is made from a soft material, and the target layer (armor or tissue) is heavy. However this results in the armor having to weigh 60+ in order to deflect a pair of reed trousers.

Ironically, a pair of trousers does not even provide enough protection to stop an attack made with a pair of trousers.

 :D  Apparently pants make a better weapon than a garment. That's hilarious.

I'm curious, when it comes to misc. items being used as weapons how does the game treat their contact area? I assume the game also always treats improvised weapons as blunt damage?

Your insight into deflection is very interesting as this indicates that in some cases candy armor will let a blow go through that something like steel would have deflected. I really should read more about dwarven battle physics so I can do some proper experimenting.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 11:41:11 pm by Melting Sky »
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2014, 03:14:41 am »

I just ran the math, and a pair of reed trousers has combat numbers close to that of a pommel strike with a sword, or a punch. Your pants do have a weight of 4-5, depending on race. War hammers are far, far better than the above. War hammers are actually less heavy than trousers, but they have a good velocity mod.

There is a check for weapons to deflect if the weapon is made from a soft material, and the target layer (armor or tissue) is heavy. However this results in the armor having to weigh 60+ in order to deflect a pair of reed trousers.

Ironically, a pair of trousers does not even provide enough protection to stop an attack made with a pair of trousers.

 :D  Apparently pants make a better weapon than a garment. That's hilarious.

I'm curious, when it comes to misc. items being used as weapons how does the game treat their contact area? I assume the game also always treats improvised weapons as blunt damage?

Your insight into deflection is very interesting as this indicates that in some cases candy armor will let a blow go through that something like steel would have deflected. I really should read more about dwarven battle physics so I can do some proper experimenting.

My thread on the modding forum related to weapons and materials: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131995.msg5196348#msg5196348 . There is a (work in progress) dfhack lua script there to calculate some of the combat numbers.

For misc weapons (that don't have a defined attack with a contact area) contact area = volume ^ (2/3).
That is like taking the cube root to get the edge length of a cube of that volume, and then squaring the length to get the area of one face of that cube. Yes, all items that don't have a defined attack are blunt, even knapped stones (if used in melee - they are only sharp when thrown!).

Wood arrows cause damage through adamantine armor, whereas they deflect off other heavier armor materials like steel.

quekwoambojish

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2014, 01:20:50 pm »

I caught that possibly un intended mount and blade reference too :P

I'm guessing when pants fall on people, they fall as if they are compact death cubes too, no?
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Melting Sky

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2014, 04:24:28 pm »

My thread on the modding forum related to weapons and materials: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131995.msg5196348#msg5196348 . There is a (work in progress) dfhack lua script there to calculate some of the combat numbers.

For misc weapons (that don't have a defined attack with a contact area) contact area = volume ^ (2/3).
That is like taking the cube root to get the edge length of a cube of that volume, and then squaring the length to get the area of one face of that cube. Yes, all items that don't have a defined attack are blunt, even knapped stones (if used in melee - they are only sharp when thrown!).

Wood arrows cause damage through adamantine armor, whereas they deflect off other heavier armor materials like steel.

Thanks for the heads up. I don't spend nearly enough time in the modding forum. I forget that there are lots of great threads there about core game mechanics. That thread you made about material properties is great. I will be armoring my dwarves slightly differently from here on out.
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Jack Smythe

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2014, 11:33:45 pm »

I keep hearing about people leaving notes on things, but have never figured out how.
By using actual (N)otes?

Damn, I am an idiot. Thanks!



I just ran the math, and a pair of reed trousers has combat numbers close to that of a pommel strike with a sword, or a punch. Your pants do have a weight of 4-5, depending on race. War hammers are far, far better than the above. War hammers are actually less heavy than trousers, but they have a good velocity mod.

There is a check for weapons to deflect if the weapon is made from a soft material, and the target layer (armor or tissue) is heavy. However this results in the armor having to weigh 60+ in order to deflect a pair of reed trousers.

Ironically, a pair of trousers does not even provide enough protection to stop an attack made with a pair of trousers.

 :D  Apparently pants make a better weapon than a garment. That's hilarious.

I'm curious, when it comes to misc. items being used as weapons how does the game treat their contact area? I assume the game also always treats improvised weapons as blunt damage?

Your insight into deflection is very interesting as this indicates that in some cases candy armor will let a blow go through that something like steel would have deflected. I really should read more about dwarven battle physics so I can do some proper experimenting.

My thread on the modding forum related to weapons and materials: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131995.msg5196348#msg5196348 . There is a (work in progress) dfhack lua script there to calculate some of the combat numbers.

For misc weapons (that don't have a defined attack with a contact area) contact area = volume ^ (2/3).
That is like taking the cube root to get the edge length of a cube of that volume, and then squaring the length to get the area of one face of that cube. Yes, all items that don't have a defined attack are blunt, even knapped stones (if used in melee - they are only sharp when thrown!).

Wood arrows cause damage through adamantine armor, whereas they deflect off other heavier armor materials like steel.

Too much math. I think physics is weeping again.

Edit: Dear Armok, I have no idea what happened with that quote tree
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 10:03:56 am by Jack Smythe »
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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2014, 04:22:37 am »

Are weapons like the least lethal thing in DF?
Now THAT is something... sigged.
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Are weapons like the least lethal thing in DF?

Rapozk

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2014, 05:08:59 am »

I just ran the math, and a pair of reed trousers has combat numbers close to that of a pommel strike with a sword, or a punch. Your pants do have a weight of 4-5, depending on race. War hammers are far, far better than the above. War hammers are actually less heavy than trousers, but they have a good velocity mod.

There is a check for weapons to deflect if the weapon is made from a soft material, and the target layer (armor or tissue) is heavy. However this results in the armor having to weigh 60+ in order to deflect a pair of reed trousers.

Ironically, a pair of trousers does not even provide enough protection to stop an attack made with a pair of trousers.

 :D  Apparently pants make a better weapon than a garment. That's hilarious.

I'm curious, when it comes to misc. items being used as weapons how does the game treat their contact area? I assume the game also always treats improvised weapons as blunt damage?

Your insight into deflection is very interesting as this indicates that in some cases candy armor will let a blow go through that something like steel would have deflected. I really should read more about dwarven battle physics so I can do some proper experimenting.

My thread on the modding forum related to weapons and materials: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131995.msg5196348#msg5196348 . There is a (work in progress) dfhack lua script there to calculate some of the combat numbers.

For misc weapons (that don't have a defined attack with a contact area) contact area = volume ^ (2/3).
That is like taking the cube root to get the edge length of a cube of that volume, and then squaring the length to get the area of one face of that cube. Yes, all items that don't have a defined attack are blunt, even knapped stones (if used in melee - they are only sharp when thrown!).

Wood arrows cause damage through adamantine armor, whereas they deflect off other heavier armor materials like steel.

Last time I modded anything, was before DF2012, but correct me if I am wrong, but misc objects didn't have any defined volume, did they? Which would make the contact area infinite small... making it very effective...

That is why platinum crutches are super weapons..

On a side note.. When dealing with falling objects, is the contact area most important, or is it the total weight? Will it calculate the contact area when dropping items?

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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Why are Pants OP?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2014, 09:18:20 am »

...

Last time I modded anything, was before DF2012, but correct me if I am wrong, but misc objects didn't have any defined volume, did they? Which would make the contact area infinite small... making it very effective...

That is why platinum crutches are super weapons..

On a side note.. When dealing with falling objects, is the contact area most important, or is it the total weight? Will it calculate the contact area when dropping items?

All items have a volume. This volume is used for storage volume in containers and (with density) to find the weight of the item.
Corpses and body part items are special, all other items have one material and one volume. Clothing and armor is scaled depending on the race that made it.

A platinum crutch is a contact 34, penetration 125, weight 42.8, 1x velocity blunt weapon. In the hands of a human the momentum is 69 +100%/-50%, which is worse than a war hammer. The same human can kick for ~81 momentum. The contact area is also worse than a war hammer, and the "weapon" is slow to strike. Hardly a "super weapon".

Weight is important for falling objects. They will reach potentially fatal momentums regardless of the contact area. Yes, contact area is still calculated. Please remember that body parts have a surface area depending on the creature size and body part relsizes - contact area will not exceed the area of the body part struck!
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