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Strictly the old series

12 (37.5%)

2012 version of XCom: Enemy Unknown, but with TFTD and Apocalypse strictly as they were

1 (3.1%)

2012 version of XCom: Enemy Unknown, with TFTD and Apocalypse modified to better mesh with it

12 (37.5%)

Vote for this if you don't care but want to see the results, but not have to click 'view poll' each time (Warning: Your vote cannot be changed because my finger slipped and hit the enter key by accident and you cannot modify polls to allow vote change.)

7 (21.9%)

Total Members Voted: 32

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Is there any interest in the creation of one?  Considering how inexperienced I am with modding and a general want to have it done at an adequate pace, it would need to be worked on as a community mod, but is there any interest in one?

We're going to be needing some modders.  Claim the section you want to work on.

Tech Trees/Items/Materials:
Progression from Vanilla to XCom Basic:	Zanzetkuken
UFO: Enemy Unknown:	Unclaimed
Terror From the Deep:	Unclaimed
Creatures/Entities:
UFO: Enemy Unknown (Sectoids, Floaters, Snakemen, Chyrissalid, Mutons, Etherals) <Builds on ground>:	Unclaimed
Terror From the Deep (Aquatoid, Gillman, Lobstermen, Bio-Drone, Deep One, Hallucinoid, Tentaculat, Triscene, Xarquid, Tasoth) <Builds in Oceans, but some are amphibious>:	Ruludos
Apocalypse (Brainsucker, Multiworm, Hyperworm, Chrysalis, Anthropod, Psimorph, Spitter, Megaspawn, Popper, Skeletoid, Micronoid Aggregate, Queenspawn, Overspawn) <Builds in Caverns>:	Unclaimed

[Ruludos]

I'd be willing to help out. How far are you thinking of going with it; do you want a total conversion or vanilla addon?

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I'd be willing to help out. How far are you thinking of going with it; do you want a total conversion or vanilla addon?

Mostly vanilla add-on, but the vanilla entities would be modified so that Goblins are (albeit reluctant) allies, and there will be an ability to construct the Sectiod/Muton/Ethereal technologies through some manner of reverse engineering (captured resource of a specific type in -> material to build shop to replicate technology out).

[Ruludos]

Alright, sounds like a plan. Perhaps we could add TFTD creatures to the sea/as other hostile civs, and Apocalypse creatures to the caverns.

I could imagine the tech tree being straightforward enough. Gather ten plasma pistols, run the reaction to study them and get 'plasma pistol blueprints,' a necessity for both researching plasma rifles and making the pistols themselves...

We'll need to whip up an appropriate tech tree and such, but I'll wait for more people to join before dwelling too much on it.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

We'll need to whip up an appropriate tech tree and such, but I'll wait for more people to join before dwelling too much on it.

Why not just use the originals?
UFO: Enemy Unknown
Terror From the Deep

Could add in some initial trees for progression to closer to the modern age, such as a Bows->Muskets->Single Shot Rifles->Bolt-Action Rifles->Semiautomatic Rifles and Catapult->Field Cannon->Howitzer-<with engine>->Tank (Cannon)-<with rockets>->Tank (Rocket).  Basically, stuff to get to a similar level of XCom's base (see below spoiler).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: (UFO: Enemy Unknown) [Select]

Pistol
Rifle
Heavy Cannon
Auto-Cannon
Rocket Launcher
Stun Rod
Grenade
Proximity Grenade
High Explosive
Smoke Grenade
Tank/Cannon
Tank/Rocket


Code: (Terror From the Deep) [Select]

Diving Suit
Dart Gun
Jet Harpoon
Gas Cannon
Hydro-Jet Cannon
Torpedo Launcher
Thermal Tazer
Magna-Blast Grenade
Magna-Pack Explosive
Particle Disturbance Grenade
Dye Grenade
Coelacanth/Gas Cannon
Coelacanth/Aqua Jet

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Made a small chart so that this is more orderly in terms of who is working on what.  I'll deal with the weaponry and reaction tiers from Vanilla to XCom's default.  All other sections are open for claiming.

Also, I realized something.  By making an XCom entity that does not spawn any cities, mountain halls, forest retreats, etc, and is the only playable, the first fortress you would construct would represent the first XCom base.  If I remember right, migrant waves, if everyone is dead, are randomized, and would represent recruits.  By using the adventurer retirement (this version) or the in-game retirement (next version), you could slowly build up XCom bases across the world.

[Urist Da Vinci]

I kind of prefer the Enemy Unknown (2012) chryssalids to the 1994 "man in lobster suit" chryssalids. The claws and poison are easy to implement. The implanted eggs might be tricky.

Which of the psionics could be reasonably implemented?

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I kind of prefer the Enemy Unknown (2012) chryssalids to the 1994 "man in lobster suit" chryssalids. The claws and poison are easy to implement. The implanted eggs might be tricky.

Could be abstracted to just a bite or slash of some kind transforming the target, just with the text of the attack saying that the eggs are implanted, rather than 'bite' or 'slash'.

I'd prefer the 1994 version for the abilities to keep a form of consistency with the TFTD aspects, but the appearances of the aliens can be either the 2012 or the 1994 version.

Which of the psionics could be reasonably implemented?

Panic/Beserk and Mind Control were apparently the only options in the original mechanics (which, as I said earlier, I would like to stick to in order for it to fit in with the TFTD stuff).  Maybe the first could be done through a split second transformation, due to transformations causing the dropping of armor and weaponry held, and the second could be done through adding the hostile to all life tag for a few seconds, which would be mechanically similar due to units typically being in a group of their own kind?

[Ruludos]

I'd prefer the 1994 version for the abilities to keep a form of consistency with the TFTD aspects, but the appearances of the aliens can be either the 2012 or the 1994 version.

There is no reason to not adapt; I'll be the first to admit that the old games haven't aged well. It will ultimately be up to whoever ends up creating them, but I would be all for a reconstruction of the original elements, both to bring them up to modern standards and to fit them into the Dwarf Fortress engine more smoothly.

Why not just use the originals?

I must admit that I'm unsure on where you want the project to start. Do we want to start at vanilla levels, with swords and steel alone, or do we want to create an XCom base with rifles and tanks? If we start at vanilla levels, will we be limiting alien contact to roughly the same time a colony reaches modern standards or will we fight Sectoids with bows and arrows?

We will also need to consider balancing, and how limited in scope it might be compared to the XCom series. If we will have Cydonian aliens and T'lethian aliens running around, how different will Sonic and Plasma be? Will we want to include Disruption technology from Apocalypse as well? How will we make various weapons at the same tech level behave differently? In the games pistols tend to be faster, more convenient for equipment use and less powerful than their larger counterparts, but we can't manipulate those last elements in Dwarf Fortress. Are we going to simply make pistols cheaper or more efficient to produce than rifles and cannons?

We also need to consider that resource collection will be different here; the only resources players will get is what the enemy brings to them. How will we implement Elerium or Zrbite? Alien alloys can be collected from dismantled weaponry, naturally, but what sort of resource costs will we place on powered armor to make it a less attractive option than personal armor?

Finally, consider that most of the TFTD equipment was simply an underwater analogue to XCom equipment; in an above-ground game and with an engine that simply won't allow underwater combat in the first place, most of the TFTD roster probably won't find a use in our mod.

There's also the issue of explosive weaponry, but I think we can survive without grenades, rockets and Blaster Launchers.

I'm mostly asking all of these questions so that I can understand where you want to bring the project and help you get it there. I'm sure that you and I have different visions of the final project, but if we want to bring it all into one cohesive mod we need to be on the same page.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I'd prefer the 1994 version for the abilities to keep a form of consistency with the TFTD aspects, but the appearances of the aliens can be either the 2012 or the 1994 version.

There is no reason to not adapt; I'll be the first to admit that the old games haven't aged well. It will ultimately be up to whoever ends up creating them, but I would be all for a reconstruction of the original elements, both to bring them up to modern standards and to fit them into the Dwarf Fortress engine more smoothly.

True.  As I see it, there's two options we could do here: run a poll and see which version people would like to see (stalling work on the Sectiod/Floaters/etc creatures and tech, as well as a little on the progression from vanilla areas, due to not knowing where to precisely end up), or we could have there be 2 versions, one based strictly off of the old games, and another using the 2014 remake of Enemy Unknown as well as having there become changes to TFTD and Apocalypse portions to have there be greater synchronization. (Effectively creating two mods, which could possibly result in resentment of everyone using one of them and those who are working on keeping the other up to date would not be recognized.)

Since it is late here, I'm going to go with the first of those two options for now, so we know what people want to see.  There will be 3 options: Strictly the old series, Old Series but 1994 edition of Enemy Unknown replaced with 2014 version, and 2014 remake with slight reimaginings of TFTD and Apocalypse.

Why not just use the originals?

I must admit that I'm unsure on where you want the project to start. Do we want to start at vanilla levels, with swords and steel alone, or do we want to create an XCom base with rifles and tanks? If we start at vanilla levels, will we be limiting alien contact to roughly the same time a colony reaches modern standards or will we fight Sectoids with bows and arrows?

By 'Originals', I was referring to the tech trees of the game for their aspects.

Since I am going to be working on that portion, I can tell you.  Initially, the player is going to start out with bows and arrows, swords, etc, then work their way up through a tech tree to technologies roughly on par with where XCom started, with some minor shifts to have some technologies showing up earlier (ex. Dart Guns will come up for production sooner than a fair deal of the other technologies.

We will also need to consider balancing, and how limited in scope it might be compared to the XCom series. If we will have Cydonian aliens and T'lethian aliens running around, how different will Sonic and Plasma be? Will we want to include Disruption technology from Apocalypse as well? How will we make various weapons at the same tech level behave differently? In the games pistols tend to be faster, more convenient for equipment use and less powerful than their larger counterparts, but we can't manipulate those last elements in Dwarf Fortress. Are we going to simply make pistols cheaper or more efficient to produce than rifles and cannons?

Actually, Broken Arrow proved you can control how much damage a projectile will perform, since knocking down the Max Velocity to 1% vanilla values caused the bolts to behave realistically.

We also need to consider that resource collection will be different here; the only resources players will get is what the enemy brings to them. How will we implement Elerium or Zrbite? Alien alloys can be collected from dismantled weaponry, naturally, but what sort of resource costs will we place on powered armor to make it a less attractive option than personal armor?

Elerium/Zrbite/Alien Alloys: Give the aliens a reaction that allows them to refine 'Alien Alloy' from nothing, but have it tagged to a job such as metalcrafter.  Then remove Furnace Operator, and they can only use that materials.  We can then set up reactions that, when a material is 'researched', you get the scrap Alien Alloys from disassembly of the weapon and a chance of getting Elerium/Zrbite.  Alternatively, the weapon's 'Plasma Blast'/'Sonic Pulse' ammo gives Elerium/Zrbite when smelted down, to simulate extraction of the material from the power source of the weapons.

Finally, consider that most of the TFTD equipment was simply an underwater analogue to XCom equipment; in an above-ground game and with an engine that simply won't allow underwater combat in the first place, most of the TFTD roster probably won't find a use in our mod.

Not in fortress mode, but in adventure mode (which with this mod would be an analogue to going out on a mission), it could provide flavor for those who want a more true to source run (ie. Not using laser and plasma weaponry underwater).

There's also the issue of explosive weaponry, but I think we can survive without grenades, rockets and Blaster Launchers.

I think there are DFHack scripts that could allow the simulation of grenades and the such.

I'm mostly asking all of these questions so that I can understand where you want to bring the project and help you get it there. I'm sure that you and I have different visions of the final project, but if we want to bring it all into one cohesive mod we need to be on the same page.

Understandable.  In any endeavor involving multiple people, communication is key to a quality experience in the final product.

[Ruludos]

Since I am going to be working on that portion, I can tell you.  Initially, the player is going to start out with bows and arrows, swords, etc, then work their way up through a tech tree to technologies roughly on par with where XCom started, with some minor shifts to have some technologies showing up earlier (ex. Dart Guns will come up for production sooner than a fair deal of the other technologies.

If that's the case, I think it would be best to restrict aliens to later in the game (relatively high pop and wealth triggers) so that the player has time to develop the weaponry to combat them effectively. If understanding alien technology requires the full human tech tree first, and if aliens are attacking from the beginning, I can see players getting overwhelmed early. Perhaps Sectoids, Aquatoids and maybe Floaters and Gillmen would be the only ones to attack early... if unarmored/lightly armored, as in the games, they would actually be killable without modern technology. Perhaps we could have two versions of these civilizations; scouts, who have no armor or psionic capabilities and light weaponry, and then the attack crews who show up later and have all of that.

Actually, Broken Arrow proved you can control how much damage a projectile will perform, since knocking down the Max Velocity to 1% vanilla values caused the bolts to behave realistically.

My main fear is that the differences between, say, a laser pistol and a laser rifle will be too little to tell during gameplay. If the laser rifle is more powerful, in this case, then there's little reason for a player to use the pistol besides the fact that they're cheaper.

Elerium/Zrbite/Alien Alloys: Give the aliens a reaction that allows them to refine 'Alien Alloy' from nothing, but have it tagged to a job such as metalcrafter.  Then remove Furnace Operator, and they can only use that materials.  We can then set up reactions that, when a material is 'researched', you get the scrap Alien Alloys from disassembly of the weapon and a chance of getting Elerium/Zrbite.  Alternatively, the weapon's 'Plasma Blast'/'Sonic Pulse' ammo gives Elerium/Zrbite when smelted down, to simulate extraction of the material from the power source of the weapons.

That sounds reasonable. I'm hesitant to rely on the vanilla smelting functionality, though; it's never really worked right. Reactions to break those items down or somesuch would, in my opinion, be the safer bet.

Not in fortress mode, but in adventure mode (which with this mod would be an analogue to going out on a mission), it could provide flavor for those who want a more true to source run (ie. Not using laser and plasma weaponry underwater).

Alright, that makes sense. Seeing as you're using the dart weaponry as a stopgap to modern weapons I don't see any problems there.

I think there are DFHack scripts that could allow the simulation of grenades and the such.

While I don't trust third-party programs, if you feel that DFHack is essential I won't argue with it.

If you don't mind I think I'll start work on the TFTD aliens.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

If that's the case, I think it would be best to restrict aliens to later in the game (relatively high pop and wealth triggers) so that the player has time to develop the weaponry to combat them effectively. If understanding alien technology requires the full human tech tree first, and if aliens are attacking from the beginning, I can see players getting overwhelmed early. Perhaps Sectoids, Aquatoids and maybe Floaters and Gillmen would be the only ones to attack early... if unarmored/lightly armored, as in the games, they would actually be killable without modern technology. Perhaps we could have two versions of these civilizations; scouts, who have no armor or psionic capabilities and light weaponry, and then the attack crews who show up later and have all of that.

We do need to have something for early on to give there to be a reason to set-up the organization, so sectiods and gillmen seem like they would be good, as well as keeping true to the source.

My main fear is that the differences between, say, a laser pistol and a laser rifle will be too little to tell during gameplay. If the laser rifle is more powerful, in this case, then there's little reason for a player to use the pistol besides the fact that they're cheaper.

Pistols will be cheaper, due to less material needed, but there will need to be a fair amount of testing to get there to be a reasonable difference in cost/performance.

That sounds reasonable. I'm hesitant to rely on the vanilla smelting functionality, though; it's never really worked right. Reactions to break those items down or somesuch would, in my opinion, be the safer bet.

Since the vanilla reaction does not allow for a second material to be gotten, we'll need to do that.

Alright, that makes sense. Seeing as you're using the dart weaponry as a stopgap to modern weapons I don't see any problems there.

Partial stop gap, but it will probably come around the time of single-shot rifles, so outside adventure mode it would probably not be frequently used.

While I don't trust third-party programs, if you feel that DFHack is essential I won't argue with it.

Many of the major mods use DFHack to introduce greater functionality.  It's a trustworthy program if we stick to the primary source code, and some of the plugins from the more prolific modders.

If you don't mind I think I'll start work on the TFTD aliens.

Marking you down for them.

[Meph]

Just commenting on Urist da Vinci: Implanting eggs is easy, I already have facehuggers in MDF that do exactly that.

I also played through XCOM Enemy Unknown/Within several times, I am open to specific questions, but wont mod for this project. I do have quite enough on my plate.

Good luck.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Velocities based on feet/sec of various rifles.  Values of bullets and shoot_force, besides what was in broken arrow, are arbitrary and need testing before being finalized.  Cannot do it personally due to being away from a DF compatible computer (posting from a school-provided chromebook).  Will eventually make a pistol branch, and other branches to fill out for starting equipment if we use XCom 2012.

Spoiler: Bows to Rifles (click to show/hide)

Code: (Broken Arrow Values (To replace vanilla values to serve as a base)) [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]
[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:27]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:200]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BOW]
[NAME:bow:bows]
[SIZE:300]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[RANGED:BOW:ARROW]
[SHOOT_FORCE:27]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:200]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_BOLTS]
[NAME:bolt:bolts]
[CLASS:BOLT]
[SIZE:150]
[ATTACK:EDGE:5:1000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_ARROWS]
[NAME:arrow:arrows]
[CLASS:ARROW]
[SIZE:150]
[ATTACK:EDGE:5:1000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]

Code: (Stage 1) [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:MUSKET]
[NAME:musket:muskets]
[SIZE:300]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:MUSKET:LBALL]
[SHOOT_FORCE:30]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:400]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_AMMO:LBALL]
[NAME:lead ball:lead balls]
[CLASS:LBALL]
[SIZE:12]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:6:1000:hit:hits:NO_SUB:1000]


Code: (Stage 2) [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:SSRIFLE]
[NAME:single-shot rifle:single-shot rifles]
[SIZE:450]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:SSRIFLE:SSHOT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:60]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:950]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_AMMO:SSHOT]
[NAME:shaped shots:shaped shots]
[CLASS:SSHOT]
[SIZE:15]
[ATTACK:EDGE:5:1000:hit:hits:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:12:1000:hit:hits:NO_SUB:1000]


Code: (Stage 3) [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:BRIFLE]
[NAME:bolt rifle:bolt rifles]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:SARIFLE:CBULLET]
[SHOOT_FORCE:90]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1990]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]

[ITEM_AMMO:CBULLET]
[NAME:self-contained bullet:self-contained bullets]
[CLASS:CBULLET]
[SIZE:17]
[ATTACK:EDGE:3:1000:hit:hits:NO_SUB:1000]


Code: (Stage 4) [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:SARIFLE]
[NAME:semiautomatic rifle:semiautomatic rifles]
[SIZE:500]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:SARIFLE:CBULLET]
[SHOOT_FORCE:120]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1990]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]


Code: (Stage 5) [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ARIFLE]
[NAME:automatic rifle:automatic rifles]
[SIZE:500]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:ARIFLE:CBULLET]
[SHOOT_FORCE:150]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:2500]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]


Just commenting on Urist da Vinci: Implanting eggs is easy, I already have facehuggers in MDF that do exactly that.

...could we borrow the code for that if trying to implement the implantation proves to be too difficult for the person who is working on Enemy Unknown portions?  You would be credited, of course.

I also played through XCOM Enemy Unknown/Within several times, I am open to specific questions, but wont mod for this project. I do have quite enough on my plate.

I wouldn't doubt that.  One of you mods has it own board!

Good luck.

Thank you.  I'm just hoping we can manage to get out an initial version with the basic stuff (Add in: Sectoids, Floaters, Aquatoids, Gillmen, Vanilla DF to XCom default reactions and items, all races technically allied but able to start wars with each other, an XCom civilization containing every race (custom creature with humans, dwarves, etc being various castes), starting with vanilla tech, that dies out very quickly, but as it is the only playable civilization, would be selectable and have randomized migrant waves that would represent incoming recruits) right now.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Declared a tentative deadline so project isn't too far delayed.  Likely to be moved back to the 30th, but current deadline will help get in more votes in a shorter time.