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[fasquardon]

So I've been tinkering around with making a Goblin plugin for a while now.  It may be that nothing comes of this, so no-one get their hopes up.  Just now, I am playing around with domestic animals, so I am wondering: What sort of animals do people think Goblins should have access to at embark?  What fits the Goblin flavour best?

The first option, as regular DF, is for Goblins to start with no domestic animals by default and be dependent on worldgen to give their civ a couple domesticated cavern creatures.

The second option that has occurred to me is to give Goblins access to the creatures they are associated with in DF lore, so trolls, elk birds, giant cave swallows, giant olms, giant bats, cave crocodiles, rutherers, jabberers, blind cave bears, and voracious cave crawlers.  It strikes me that this would be a somewhat powerful selection of creatures though, and perhaps not terribly balanced.  Though one idea I had for this is to give all these cave creatures the "opportunity" to catch rabies, meaning Goblin forts would need to survive a tame voracious cave crawler turning into a maddened beast and trying to eat all your Goblins.

The third option is to give Goblins creatures they are associated with in general fantasy.  So things like wargs and what have you.

I think Goblins should definitely come with domestic elves/dwarfs/humans/orcs/kobolds to represent their baby-snatching ways.  (My idea is that these slaves would basically be able to breed, act as cannon fodder, sacrifice fodder and be "initiated into the tribe" to turn a slave of X race into a Goblin of X caste, for example human slave->manling goblin.)  I am also thinking that Goblins would be able to summon special demon pets, who would then be rather likely to get elected leader of the tribe.

If I can find a way to do it elegantly, I am also wanting to find a way to restrict Goblins from getting normal domestic animals at embark without limiting other races access of them.

So what do the rest of you guys think Goblins should be taming?

fasquardon

[Blazebase]

Trolls, definitely trolls.

Trolls is what ogres are to the kobolds; sizable meat shields that can dish out some serious damage if an enemy gets too close, and serves as their main protectors. Though, I do see goblins as a more sadistic race that is more concerned about making their enemies suffer, rather then to kill them outright (Like those goblin lashers I see all the time.) so having a beast that is close to matching their sadistically brutal force would be the big ole' scruffy trolls themselves.

Not the modded trolls either, I am talking about the ones that have tusk, horns and are shearable; the vanilla trolls.

Makes me remember the time that I started out an Ice Orcish Fortress, and I had access to trolls... I thought they were pretty boring with all their wrestling (Which is pretty deadly, but makes fights pretty long and drawn out and exposes them for mortal wounds) so I modded them to have straight punches, uppercuts, hay-makers, all of it. It was glorious. (Plus I had a wolf pit too)

Long story short, trolls should be your main animal to push for, if they seem too rigged, just make them more pricey or lengthen the period their children grow up.

Side note, Beak Dogs are also a nice thing, clocking in at around 2.5x the size of a human, they would make for a formidable.... er.... pack? I guess?
I can just see it now, training these things for hunting and war (When modded ofc), the hunting one really has me going, just the idea of about 4 beak dogs jumping a moose with a goblin (Or several of them) just pelting it with poison laced arrows.....

[LMeire]

I usually think of goblins as having only survived any amount of time by their vast numbers and cumulative sheer luck- being so needlessly cruel and selfish to the point where any endeavor only succeeds because physics, historical trends, and common sense got tired of arguing with them. (Think room full of monkeys with a typewriter, but replace Shakespeare with Attila the Hun.)

So I'm thinking that their cattle would be short-lived, disease-ridden, and prone to violent outbursts. They wouldn't have mere dogs, mastiffs, or dire wolves- they'd have parasite-covered ravenous mongrels that flew into a berserker rage at the slightest sign of an acceptable mauling target. They wouldn't have cats or moleweasels hunt vermin, they'd breed the vermin into larger, stronger, cannibalistic versions and let the problem solve itself in the most entertaining fashion possible. Goblin cattle would be horribly malnourished and disfigured, but the beasts would able to survive on pastures half as large as what a dwarf, human or even orc-owned animal was provided. And if some goblins get killed in the process of rearing, containing and harvesting these monsters? Oh well, it was only like 5 slaves or so, a reliable source of meat is easily worth 10 times that many.

[Gamerlord]

I usually think of goblins as having only survived any amount of time by their vast numbers and cumulative sheer luck- being so needlessly cruel and selfish to the point where any endeavor only succeeds because physics, historical trends, and common sense got tired of arguing with them. (Think room full of monkeys with a typewriter, but replace Shakespeare with Attila the Hun.)

So I'm thinking that their cattle would be short-lived, disease-ridden, and prone to violent outbursts. They wouldn't have mere dogs, mastiffs, or dire wolves- they'd have parasite-covered ravenous mongrels that flew into a berserker rage at the slightest sign of an acceptable mauling target. They wouldn't have cats or moleweasels hunt vermin, they'd breed the vermin into larger, stronger, cannibalistic versions and let the problem solve itself in the most entertaining fashion possible. Goblin cattle would be horribly malnourished and disfigured, but the beasts would able to survive on pastures half as large as what a dwarf, human or even orc-owned animal was provided. And if some goblins get killed in the process of rearing, containing and harvesting these monsters? Oh well, it was only like 5 slaves or so, a reliable source of meat is easily worth 10 times that many.

I like this idea.

[sonofperturabo]

trolls, definitly
perhaps trolls blood.milk can be made into a potion that turns goblins into hulking brutes but slowly kills them?

beak dogs
bats

[Meph]

All suggestions from the first post are possible btw. Just saying. Urist daVinci wrote a script that can add pets to civs without other civs having access to them.

I would take the pets that they have in vanilla df, simply because people already know these creatures and dont need to learn new creatures, and because goblins are obe of the few mdf races that also exist in vanilla.

Pet other-civ slaves fit perfectly, which can either work like the orcish workshops, or actual creatures like you plan. But you would have to make new ceeatures for that. See the PRISONER in Warlock mode.

For conversions, ask Boltgun. He knows the secret runes and magic to get dfhack to do such things.

[fasquardon]

Thanks for the suggestions there Meph, that'll help alot with the execution!

And it looks like the interest is very much for the second of the options I was considering.  Somewhat surprised that people like the idea of rabies prone Goblin pets...

I like LMeire's ideas about overcrowded pens of Goblin cattle...  I am thinking all Goblin domestics might come in several castes: the "rabies" caste (or rebelling slave caste, for intelligent pets), a "disease ridden" caste, that could infect fellow animals and Goblins with, basically camp feaver (so lots of barfing), a "runt" caste, that would be smaller and weaker than normal specimens of that animal (but would also be more resistant to diseases), a "normal" caste and finally a "dire" caste, which would be the meanest orniest beasts known to Goblinkind.

Another thought I had was to link Goblin slaves with the "evil twin" races.  Or at least with the Human Bandits.  So Goblins could release slaves (use them up in a reaction basically) to go raid neighbors and found satellite fortresses.  As a sort of extension of the concept of Goblins working to liberate the other races.  So the Ashland Elves, Human Bandits, Deep Drow and Chaos Dwarfs would be what happened when Goblins successfully convert other races to their philosphy of freedom and anti-Armokism, but the converts are too weak to be made full members of the Goblin clan.

It would be even cooler if there were a way to make slaves converted in a Goblin fort during play part of the other races that the game tracks in its history.  As far as I am aware, that's impossible as of now, though.

fasquardon

[Patto]

Although I like the idea of the pets being mangy, decrepid and quite mad. But that seems too much of a disadvantage to compensate it with them requiring less pasture. Once you are in the first cavern, you have plenty of pasture unless you have 20 cows, at which point you just flood more cavern, and get moss growing.

I think the food/leather based domestic creatures should be diseased, but they should have access to evil creatures. For example they should have poor food capabilities from all their creatures, but should have access to Giant Cave Spider Hatchlings ("GCS hatchlings" for short when listed), they have the same venom, but are easy to kill, but reproduce quickly. Think of a nest box being for a wild GCS, and when the hatchlings get too big they kill their captors are released.

Trolls can be kept, but they need to be diversified. Multiple types, upgradeable to. E.g. Troll (basic, wrestler), Club Troll (blunt damage), Spear Troll (Piercing attacks), Axe Troll (No more limbs for you). Armour could also be added, but it should be minimal, think plates of metal strapped to them using rope.

I think goblins should have an increased learning rate in more sadistic weapons e.g. knives, lashes, whips, fist-weapons. Making trolls more useful as pure killing machines.

Goblins should have a high breeding rate (A bit lower than kobolds), and quick maturity (2 years). They should use numbers to their advantage, but as you know they are individually weak.

[Meph]

I personally dislike armed pets that use fake bodyparts as weapon. Its fine with constructs, but a troll that gets hit in the spear would feel pain for example.

I do like the idea of disease ridden pets, because you can use them as bioweapons. Send rabies dogs out, and suddenly the dwarves might fight each other. Send plaque rats, and they get weak and barf, before your goblins attack.

Reminds me a bit of Warhammer Skaven tactics.

[fasquardon]

Part of why I like the idea of Goblin pets being mangy and decrepit is because I want Goblins to be harder than most Masterwork races to play (but in an interesting way, not an annoying way), and the pets that vanilla Goblins tend to tame (such as cave crocs and beak dogs) are pretty dang strong.  They are also mainly predators, which means grazing is less of an issue for them.  So disease and random aggression being an issue means that the awesomeness of the animals is countered a bit...

I also imagine Goblins as talented, but neophyte, domesticators.  So their animals would be halfway between wild and tame...  Then the player could choose, through selective slaughtering, which traits the animals of their own fort posess.  So the "runt" castes would, while being smaller and less vicious, also be less prone to rage and disease.  The "dire" castes would be the opposite, big, mean and more likely to bite the hand that fed them.

I like the idea of speciallized troll breeds...  What I imagine is more like dog breeds than trolls armed with particular weapons, though.

I was originally thinking that Goblins would be fast breeders, but I have been noticing that is a rather common trait in Masterwork races at the moment.  Hence my thinking now about slow-breeding Goblins that maintain their numbers by recruiting new Goblins from among the captive populations of other races.  Gives a different spin to things, and makes the whole "babysnatching and unprejudiced" flavour of the DF Goblins a bigger part of playing a Goblin fortress.

fasquardon

[Meph]

Dwarves, Gnomes, Planned Humans dont breed fast.
Orcs slightly faster.
Kobolds breed fast.
Warlocks dont breed at all.

[Patto]

Perhaps trolls could become tougher e.g. Thicker Skin.

Troll Runt-Smaller, more agile, faster movement, weakest in combat. Most docile.
Troll Brute-Average troll. DF troll, but with added problems e.g. disease, slight bad temper.
Dire Troll-High strength+toughness. Very slow, very likely to attack his captors. Need to be kept singly, so they don't rip each others heads off.

Still adds variety, whilst balancing the advantages of brute strength with the ability to get into combat and not kill the whole fortress with a killing spree. The dire trolls will not be too powerful since they can be picked off by arrows due to their slow movements.

[Maul_Junior]

Thanks for the suggestions there Meph, that'll help alot with the execution!

And it looks like the interest is very much for the second of the options I was considering.  Somewhat surprised that people like the idea of rabies prone Goblin pets...

I like LMeire's ideas about overcrowded pens of Goblin cattle...  I am thinking all Goblin domestics might come in several castes: the "rabies" caste (or rebelling slave caste, for intelligent pets), a "disease ridden" caste, that could infect fellow animals and Goblins with, basically camp feaver (so lots of barfing), a "runt" caste, that would be smaller and weaker than normal specimens of that animal (but would also be more resistant to diseases), a "normal" caste and finally a "dire" caste, which would be the meanest orniest beasts known to Goblinkind.



fasquardon

Just a thought, here, going on with your theme, I think that all livestock (and cat-like vermin hunters) should be able to be trained for war/hunting. I'm not saying all pets should be GOOD at hunting/war--far from it.

Also, possibly increased amounts of vermin in Goblin forts?

I was originally thinking that Goblins would be fast breeders, but I have been noticing that is a rather common trait in Masterwork races at the moment.  Hence my thinking now about slow-breeding Goblins that maintain their numbers by recruiting new Goblins from among the captive populations of other races.  Gives a different spin to things, and makes the whole "babysnatching and unprejudiced" flavour of the DF Goblins a bigger part of playing a Goblin fortress.

Maybe have your Goblins as *a* Goblin race? DF Gobbos are rabbit rabble war war war, your Gobbos are (slightly) more organized baby snatchers who always have something going on tomorrow night (The Same thing we do every night, Urist--Try to take over the world)

[Meph]

It will be difficult to set up, because births are of random casts. Even if you cull/kill all non dire castes and have 10 dire creatures that breed, you would get 10 random castes as result.

The workaround is to make a pet creature as basis that you can buy/order. "Wargh" for example. It has non-pet castes, runt, dire, normal, whatever... and these castes have a selftargetted interaction to transform.

Then you make new creatures, a dire wargh, a runt wargh, etc, and the born castes from the base wargh transform into those. Now you have runt warghs that only give birth to runt warghs and dire warghs that only give birth to dire warghs...

Of course it could all be done with workshop reactions, but thays not the same, because the breeding and birth factor wouldnt matter if you just transform them with reactions.

[fasquardon]

Hmm.  How would vermin numbers be increased in a Goblin fort?  The only method I can think of is to add more vermin creature types to the game when Goblins are selected.

Maybe have your Goblins as *a* Goblin race? DF Gobbos are rabbit rabble war war war, your Gobbos are (slightly) more organized baby snatchers who always have something going on tomorrow night (The Same thing we do every night, Urist--Try to take over the world)

Getting the "flavour" of the Goblins right is one of the biggest obstacles in making this mod for me.  Since they are already part of the Dwarf Fortress world and everyone has their own vision of them...  As such, it is quite likely that any Goblin mod made would get the flavour "wrong" for most of the people playing.

It will be difficult to set up, because births are of random casts. Even if you cull/kill all non dire castes and have 10 dire creatures that breed, you would get 10 random castes as result.

Actually I am thinking of exactly what you are talking about.  The beasts wouldn't breed true, so a Goblin overlord would always have to be getting rid of the ones that weren't wanted.

Though, if I wanted to get REAL fancy, I could create several Goblin tech levels that could be worked through during play.  For example, basic Goblins would have no default creatures domesticated (only what they tamed during world gen) only iron, no farming, certainly no tree farming, no fancy castes...  Then there could be special reactions to create more advanced crearures that Goblins could then tame in the normal way (and once fully domesticated would be available to buy at embark for the player's next fort).  Goblins could gather plants, and start farming the seeds.  And similarly to the tech levels that Orcs and Kobolds have, one could do buildings for the Goblins the same way, to enable Goblins to discover the secrets of steel and other advanced secrets...  I am not sure such fanciness would be worth while though.  For example, with the Kobolds and Orcs, I generally find that my fortresses die of framerate death before I really explore the tech trees any.

Alternatively, a player could select different types of Goblin when setting up a game in the launcher.  So there would be, say, different patron demons or different civilization levels that one could select, which would each have slightly different flavours and things available to them.

fasquardon