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Author Topic: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?  (Read 11130 times)

gtaguy

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2014, 01:54:33 am »

Don't GCS cause some kind of permanent dizziness? Couldn't we just use that?
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Quietust

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2014, 08:08:52 am »

Don't GCS cause some kind of permanent dizziness? Couldn't we just use that?
Those are regular cave spiders - the giant ones cause temporary paralysis.
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MDFification

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2014, 08:15:24 am »

Don't GCS cause some kind of permanent dizziness? Couldn't we just use that?
Those are regular cave spiders - the giant ones cause temporary paralysis.

By temporary he means the subjects die before we can see if it wears off.
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Quietust

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2014, 11:09:40 am »

Don't GCS cause some kind of permanent dizziness? Couldn't we just use that?
Those are regular cave spiders - the giant ones cause temporary paralysis.

By temporary he means the subjects die before we can see if it wears off.
Actually, by "temporary" I mean that sufficiently large creatures only get partially paralyzed before the poison wears off and they return to normal. If dwarves had bigger lungs, they'd be able to survive too.
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Button

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2014, 12:40:15 pm »

Happy Nobles don't generate a whole lot of demands...
Since when?

[edit] I'm looking at a disassembly of the relevant code right now, and happiness is not a factor when making new mandates or demands.

These are the criteria:
* Hasn't made a mandate/demand lately
* Isn't dead, hasn't left the map, isn't a projectile, and isn't caged
* Isn't insane (or in the middle of a mood)
* Isn't incapacitated (unconscious, webbed, or paralyzed)
* Isn't nauseated, winded, stunned, dizzy, or feverish
* Isn't bleeding
* Has a soul
* Is a member of your fortress

Obviously dead or insane are the easiest states to develop, but the latter quickly becomes the former and you get a replacement noble.

Unless the insane mayor is immortal...
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Larix

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2014, 02:04:15 pm »

Do insane mayors actually stay in office? I know nobility loses their title once they go gaga (or die).

"Isn't a projectile" - well, i should guess a noble who's currently a projectile would have other things on their mind than tell the fort they want a brass bed in their tomb.

Minor datum: as far as i can tell, nobles can mandate production of goods and ban exports while underwater (vampire noble in submerged danger room).
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Quote from: jcochran on June 02, 2014, 02:48:54 pm

    ...
    Not so sure about that. Caged prisoners (justice system) do get fed and watered as a low priority job. And I don't think DF first checks if the hungry and/or thirsty dwarf is a subject of either the justice or medical system. So a caged mayor ought to be feed and watered as a low priority job.


FYI the problem is not the job "priority", but rather that there is a cooldown on how often they can be fed/watered, and it gets reset whenever the game goes looking for someone to do the job, regardless if anyone is assigned to bring the food/water. If at that instant no one is able to take the job, the prisoner/patient has to wait another 1.5 days or so before they get another chance. The job simply doesn't wait in a job queue like the workshop or construction jobs.

There's still the notable difference that for chained or caged dwarfs (and babies), the first give food/water job tends to trigger just fine, but the second never occurs. And i'm quite sure there's no "justice" check - a captured child (caught in the bag of a goblin snatcher who was then nabbed by a cage trap) received food once but then perished from dehydration (the food is proven, because the bag she was in was listed as a "rat weed seed bag"); similarly, a captured berserk elven merchant was fed and watered once, but not a second time. I've never had this happen with a properly acknowledged hospital patient - one of them survived several years of being stuck in a traction bench - , so there _is_ a no-feed bug affecting specifically captured units and babies.

For reference, i forced the survival of a few babies by temporarily adding NO_EAT or NO_DRINK to the dwarven raws whenever the baby got to starving or dehydrated. In those cases, each baby was fed and watered once, but completely ignored thereafter; in one super-exceptional case, a baby got a second dose of water - in the eleven months from becoming an orphan to its first birthday. All other episodes of deep thirst (about ten altogether) and all of hunger (five or six) would have killed it, because it just wasn't getting anything, in spite of decent numbers of idlers with the relevant labours at all times. Patients have always been provided for adequately in that fort.

A very wild guess would be that being permanently "idle" screws up the job manager somehow - babies never take any jobs, and caged units are similarly restricted. Doesn't explain dwarfs on chains getting killed through neglect. Interestingly, job processing seems to be o.k. with patients being permanently in "Rest" state.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2014, 08:18:59 pm »

...
There's still the notable difference that for chained or caged dwarfs (and babies), the first give food/water job tends to trigger just fine, but the second never occurs. And i'm quite sure there's no "justice" check - a captured child (caught in the bag of a goblin snatcher who was then nabbed by a cage trap) received food once but then perished from dehydration (the food is proven, because the bag she was in was listed as a "rat weed seed bag"); similarly, a captured berserk elven merchant was fed and watered once, but not a second time. I've never had this happen with a properly acknowledged hospital patient - one of them survived several years of being stuck in a traction bench - , so there _is_ a no-feed bug affecting specifically captured units and babies.

For reference, i forced the survival of a few babies by temporarily adding NO_EAT or NO_DRINK to the dwarven raws whenever the baby got to starving or dehydrated. In those cases, each baby was fed and watered once, but completely ignored thereafter; in one super-exceptional case, a baby got a second dose of water - in the eleven months from becoming an orphan to its first birthday. All other episodes of deep thirst (about ten altogether) and all of hunger (five or six) would have killed it, because it just wasn't getting anything, in spite of decent numbers of idlers with the relevant labours at all times. Patients have always been provided for adequately in that fort.

A very wild guess would be that being permanently "idle" screws up the job manager somehow - babies never take any jobs, and caged units are similarly restricted. Doesn't explain dwarfs on chains getting killed through neglect. Interestingly, job processing seems to be o.k. with patients being permanently in "Rest" state.

Suggested reading:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138609.msg5286137#msg5286137
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2606

I also used a lua script during testing to monitor the job list/queue in case there were neglected feed/water jobs out there. There never were - only successful feed/water jobs were created, and only when the job was actually being done.

BoredVirulence

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2014, 09:25:34 pm »

I can't believe that simple, ordinary cave spiders can fix nobles forever...
This must be the reason for them applying permanent dizziness, Toady did it to rig his nobles. Its like a cheat code!
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doublestrafe

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2014, 10:17:00 pm »

Can dizzy dwarves gain social skills?
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cue

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2014, 08:12:43 am »

Can dizzy dwarves gain social skills?

So far as I know, yes. I've had a rather sizable dizzy population in one of my forts, and they've all continued to gain XP in labor skills.
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Enemy post

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Re: Remove noble's hands = no more demands?
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2014, 05:28:28 pm »

Has anyone tried this yet? And come up with a suitable apology to all the cave spider this community killed, without regard to their ability to reform our system of government?
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