Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod  (Read 8661 times)

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« on: June 01, 2014, 03:44:44 pm »

A much more involved and comprehensive version of my bloomery building mod.

Download: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=8600
Notes for people who want to manually edit raws for compatibilities:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Features:
1) All technical "metal ores" are removed from the game and replaced with normal stone versions. This deactivates the automatically coded default smelter building reactions for anything except melting objects, removes ores from embark previews (which is an also more realistic side effect), and it deactivates ore stockpiles, but you can just use "economic stone" easily as a replacement.
2) All metals that are redundantly pointless for the game or unrealistic for the 14th century are removed (platinum, aluminum, etc. see below), and a couple other realistic metals are added (arsenical bronze, arsenic)
3) The bloomery building replaces all iron and steel production. It realistically does not require flux, but does require much more manual labor and fuel than before, and the fuel must be charcoal only.
4) Various new reactions were added to the smelter building for all of the metals that are easy to smelt. You still use the same building as before.

Building - Bloomery: (note: requires anvil, but can be deconstructed and used for forge)
14th century Europe did not have blast furnaces in any significant usage. They didn't melt iron at all, they got it hot enough to be spongy, then hammered it over and over (requiring re-heating) to physically knock out chunks of more brittle impurities while the iron folded and bent and stayed in the "bloom" of metal. Iron could then be used alone, or steel could be made by reheating bits of iron that had enough carbon with oxygen and more carbon, then welding them together and folding to remove more impurities and make into objects (or in this case just bars). Carburizing to make steel would have created significant waste as pig iron for metal that got too much carbon. They didn't have the technology to do anything with pig iron, so it is modeled as lost metal here.

Both iron and steelmaking therefore in this mod are hugely labor intensive compared to vanilla, however neither of them require flux (since hammering removes impurities instead). Flux is optional, and if you use it, you get to skip two of the hammering steps, but it can only play a minor role in bloomery forging at best.  All fuel MUST be specifically charcoal. Charcoal is purer than mineral carbon in terms of impurities, and you have to work too hard to drive out impurities in bloomery forging to just add them back in constantly (you'd never achieve useful metal if you did).

Note: blooms are supposed to be semi-molten, and not allowed to cool. I roughly simulate this in the mod by giving them a fixed temperature above their heat damage point. If you leave them alone without working to the next step for ~2 weeks, they will self destruct. Working even just one step "resets the clock."

Iron Making
A] Ore -> Impure bloom -> quasi-pure bloom -> semi-pure bloom -> pure bloom -> 2 iron bars    fuel: 3 charcoal per bar
B] Ore + flux -> semi-pure bloom -> pure bloom -> 2 iron bars  fuel: 2 charcoal per bar (but 0.5 flux)

Steel Making
A] Ore -> Impure bloom -> quasi-pure bloom -> semi-pure bloom -> pure bloom -> 2 small steel blooms -> 1 large steel bloom -> 1 steel bar  fuel: 9 charcoal per bar
B] Ore + flux -> semi-pure bloom -> pure bloom -> 2 small steel blooms -> 1 large steel bloom -> 1 steel bar  fuel: 7 charcoal per bar (but 0.5 flux)
C] 2 iron bars -> 2 small steel blooms -> 1 large steel bloom -> 1 steel bar fuel: 10 charcoal per bar if inefficiently done from scratch, 4 charcoal per bar if from melted goblinite, caravan iron, etc.

Building - Smelter
Just a big furnace where you would melt things other than iron and remove slag impurities. Same building and concept as the vanilla DF smelter is supposed to be, except with all of the original's unrealistic abilities removed and replaced as needed. You can use non-charcoal fuel here, due to it being proper smelting, which is more forgiving than bloom hammering.

All other metal making:
Lignite and Bituminous are as normal
Silver nuggets -> 4 silver bars (can no longer make silver armor and weapons)
gold nuggets -> 4 gold bars
galena -> 2 lead bars (silver required different methods and would be lost in slag with just simple smleting)
galena -> 2 silver bars (if using silver methods, the lead is too oxidized to be useful as metal. One or the other)
cassiterite -> 4 tin bars (made more common)
sphalerite -> 1 zinc oxide boulder (distilled at still + 1 log + fuel to 4 zinc.  Zinc sublimates to a gas, so you "roast" off other impurities first, then you literally distill it to pure metal)
malachite or tetrahedrite -> 4 impure copper bars (~30% weaker than normal copper)
native copper -> 4 pure copper bars
realgar -> 4 arsenic bars
orpiment -> 4 arsenic bars (both made a bit more common)
malachite or tetrahedrite + quartzite -> 4 pure copper bars (silica is a flux for copper ore.)
3 pure copper + 1 tin = 4 bronze bars
3 pure copper + 1 tin + 1 arsenic = 4 arsenical bronze bars (~40% stronger than bronze, on par with plain wrought iron)
1 tetrahedrite + 1 tin = 2 arsenical bronze bars
3 silver bars + 1 pure copper bar -> 4 sterling silver bars
1 pure copper bar + 1 zinc bar -> 2 brass bars (worth as much as gold in this mod)
adamantine as normal

All other metals removed as too futuristic or redundant for gameplay (Nickel, platinum, bismuth, aluminum, billon, bismuth bronze, black bronze, electrum, various pewters, rose gold, pig iron)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 04:03:16 pm by GavJ »
Logged
Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

CryptoCactus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 01:37:42 pm »

This is awesome. I am definitely going to use this!

You also just taught me lots about medieval ironmaking, so that's a bonus too.
Logged
[REFERENCE]Creature Errors - Starvation, immortals, unbreedables, pet problems:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136374.0

My unofficial Modest Mod update:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105871.msg5021367#msg5021367

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2014, 03:16:55 pm »

Sweet, good to hear.  Please note I've never personally smelted iron in a bloomery or anything. Just researched a bunch of websites (including some who have in modern day). But no guarantees on 100% accuracy. Just a lot closer than vanilla.

Also, as importantly, it's an amusing challenge mode change in gameplay.
Logged
Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

CryptoCactus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2014, 03:36:07 pm »

Spat out a few errors:

Spoiler: errorlog (click to show/hide)

The first three are because the entities are still trying to use the now-non-existent COPPER material for their currency (I changed it to PURE_COPPER on my end).

The last one is just a malformed reaction - I believe

[REAGENT:B:1:WOOD:NO_SUBTYPE:WOOD:NONE]

should be

[REAGENT:B:1:WOOD:NONE:NONE:NONE]



Haven't actually play-tested it yet, just letting you know about the above.
Logged
[REFERENCE]Creature Errors - Starvation, immortals, unbreedables, pet problems:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136374.0

My unofficial Modest Mod update:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105871.msg5021367#msg5021367

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2014, 04:18:25 pm »

Odd. All of those reactions work for me, possibly in spite of errors being spat out on startup. Maybe the distill gets a log, but might also grab a wooden barrel full of expensive things too or something.

I dunno, will change both of them presently.
Logged
Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Evaris

  • Bay Watcher
  • Random Bored Kitsune
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 10:55:06 am »

Hey, figured I'd come over and toss in an idea, why not add in white copper / cupronickel as an option?  It historically used for the time period and earlier (Romans, Greeks, Chinese)  and used for both weapons and decorations, though all the early processes just used the nickel ore itself in the process. 

Just figured I'd ask.
Logged
Orichalcum Dwarf Fortress: An expansion mod giving extra realistic options to many un-and-underused materials in game.  [currently out of date, may be revived in the future]

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 04:59:46 pm »

I saw that in the "more metals" thread, but when I looked it up:
1) It was outside what I perceive as Toady's geographical area and time period from all the other stuff in the game.
2) Even in the east, it basically seems like nobody had any idea what they were doing and thought it was just special white copper. Thus, if it were to be added, it shouldn't be as an intentionally alloyed mixture of specific ores (smelter reaction), but rather would just be a variant of copper ore vein that happens to have nickel impurities in it.
3) Another vein type f metal that is just instantly good seems a little boring.
4) More importantly, given #2, it undermines the effort and extra challenge of the iron and bronze methods added, competing with them on the basis of pure luck of finding veins. It's supposed to be both realism and an associated challenge.

So mainly because of #3 and #4 gameplay reasons, I prefer to use #1 as an excuse not to include.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 05:01:42 pm by GavJ »
Logged
Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Evaris

  • Bay Watcher
  • Random Bored Kitsune
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 06:32:25 pm »

I saw that in the "more metals" thread, but when I looked it up:
1) It was outside what I perceive as Toady's geographical area and time period from all the other stuff in the game.
2) Even in the east, it basically seems like nobody had any idea what they were doing and thought it was just special white copper. Thus, if it were to be added, it shouldn't be as an intentionally alloyed mixture of specific ores (smelter reaction), but rather would just be a variant of copper ore vein that happens to have nickel impurities in it.
3) Another vein type f metal that is just instantly good seems a little boring.
4) More importantly, given #2, it undermines the effort and extra challenge of the iron and bronze methods added, competing with them on the basis of pure luck of finding veins. It's supposed to be both realism and an associated challenge.

So mainly because of #3 and #4 gameplay reasons, I prefer to use #1 as an excuse not to include.

1.  I counter with the Cyclops, Hydra, and Minotaur being in, which implies Greek as being encompassed in the sphere.
2.  Actually they had an idea - they knew that specific ore worked for it.  They didn't know why, or what was different about it specifically.. but they knew x ore made copper stronger.  Meanwhile the Greeks / Romans recognized it, again, as an additive for alloying.
3.  well it's not instantly good.  After all, you need pure copper and a bit of tin first if we're doing this realistically, even if the tin was only used to properly separate the slag from the cupronickel.  Also of note, bronze and arsenical bronze are stronger against impact/compression than cupronickel, making the former pair more suited for plate-type armor and blunt weapons. while cupronickel's superior tensile and shear strength make it better suited for mail and blades.  It's not an insta-win against bronze.
4.  you could of course make the veins for nickel rare or only be found in small clusters, making it scarce.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 12:24:01 am by Evaris »
Logged
Orichalcum Dwarf Fortress: An expansion mod giving extra realistic options to many un-and-underused materials in game.  [currently out of date, may be revived in the future]

MDFification

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hammerer at Law
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2014, 10:31:14 am »

One nitpick; there's no real reason to get rid of platinum entirely (although how it's acquired could quite feasibly be reworked). Pre-columbian Native Americans made items out of platinum, so there is definately a way to get platinum within the technological range.
Logged

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2014, 06:35:36 pm »

Native Americans also aren't medieval western Europe. But mainly it's just an issue of clutter. Similar to masterwork making all leather just = "leather" because it doesn't really matter what kind it is and gums things up. Especially since platinum is silly for weapons anyway, which was the only thing it really is normally used for in DF (hammers, etc. Would bend almost instantly).

So I'm just trying to include things that
1) Were obtainable, AND
2) Mattered in any significant way

(Even brass was a little questionable, but I thought that making it reasonably much more expensive gives an alternative to gold for super highly concentrated value items, in areas with very different ore profiles. And unlike something like aluminum, it can be made in those areas with reliable volume)

Anyway, comes down to arbitrary preferences.

I am currently working on a broader mod designed to be more customizable / for other people with other industries too.
Logged
Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Wannabehero

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2014, 12:46:10 pm »

A very nice metalworking mod, and I commend the work that went into it, shows the care into researching ancient metalworking methods.

Of course, I have nitpicking points, because I am that way when it comes to metallurgy and old world geology.

__________

You modeled the iron bloom process very well, however, from a game perspective I am worried that the fuel requirements are a bit extreme and the steps taken a little more detailed than should be strictly necessary, i.e. more labor intensive than would be fun gameplay.  I would recommend removing a couple of the intermediate quasi-pure/semi-pure stages and small bloom -> large bloom conversions, and hence only have impure blooms and pure blooms.

Impure Blooms + flux could go straight to iron bars (and from iron to steel with the addition of fuel), while Impure Blooms + fuel could go to pure blooms, and from pure blooms to iron bars or steel blooms (using no flux).  This way, flux saves labor and fuel, and possibly could increase yield as well.

Just my two ☼

__________

I also argue against the removal of platinum.  I understand your reasoning based on 14th century European knowledge, but these are dwarves damnit!  Platinum was well within the technological abilities to obtain for that time period, it just wasn't understood or was commonly misidentified (fool's silver).

I support the removal of nickel, aluminum, bismuth, and various obscure alloys, they are of little practical use or importance.  I would retain a single pewter alloy, to create some use for lead as a decorative metal (Tin-Lead pewter).  I would also recommend adding a leaded bronze alloy (weaker than bronze, same value), allowing lead a use in decorations there as well, or to slightly weaken but increase your stock of weapons-grade metals.

Along those lines, your silver output for galena is way off-base, as is the vanilla DF.  Galena can be, at most, around 2% silver by metal content, the rest is lead(sulfide).  Galena is a lead ore, not a silver ore, though it is usually mined for the silver traces and not the lead.  I would recommend changing Galena to output 4 bars of lead per boulder, or 1 bar of silver, to keep it game relevant but more realistic.

Remove the quartzite requirement for smelting malachite/tetrahedrite.  You are creating a whole new flux problem.  Also, you don't need that much silica, and sufficiently pure sand serves that same purpose, and is only really needed in any significant amount when smelting the most common copper ore, which is not represented in this game (chalcopyrite).

Brings me to another point.  I am firmly of the belief that tetrahedrite should be removed from the game (it is rare and has never been an important source of copper ore), or at the very least be made into an uncommon small cluster deposit.  Tetrahedrite should be replaced in the game by chalcocite or chalcopyrite, which are the actual most common and abundant ores of copper (in-game colors should be gray for chalcocite, yellow for chalcopyrite).

__________

Thats all I've got for now.  Sorry to go on so much, I really like what are doing with this mod, this is just something I've thought about and studied a lot.  I have an unfinished mineral overhaul mod that use personally but have not released.  It fixes smelting, ore contents, alloying, and also completely renames all the stones and ores in the game to use more natural, archaic terms, such as you would expect in a medieval setting (for example: galena is called leadglance, sphalerite was known as zincblende, dolomite is also known as pearlspar, etc.)
Logged

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2014, 04:43:01 pm »

Those are all great suggestions, thanks!

I am with you on most or all of the metal occurrence suggestions. Leaded bronze feels a bit useless, but maybe. I might still consider the nickel bronze suggested by somebody above though, which serves a similar role.  I am especially happy to hear that tetrahedrite has a more common realistic replacement, because even though I didn't know that about reality, tetrahedrite always bothered me a bit...

The bloom process I don't want to mess with TOO much, because it's supposed to be precious and difficult metal, and if you remove some of those steps, it makes it feel less important. Also, labor as a cost is needed in some significant amount to make up for not needing the flux.

What I realize I should definitely do, however, at the very least, is make the secondary hammering reactions all automatic, so there is no micromanagement, just a time to wait. That should increase game fun a lot without actually decreasing costs. Also, I may be willing to remove one of the intermediate steps.

Will get to these things soon.



This is sort of just a pilot test, by the way, for a much larger modding project where I plan to revisit every single industry in a similar fashion, for equal parts increased realism and more challenging gameplay/FUN.

Ceramics and glass - both of them I plan to give more usefulness to, including a source of getting otherwise harder to find colors for color coding and decoration, higher relative value, as well as possibly re-scaling temperature a bit to make ceramic more of a unique magma safe material. Maybe. Also, possible abrasives uses. Also, if I can adjust the stone industry, they may be actually useful sources of containers. Additionally, I plan to update both by more realistic recipes and by not letting you get infinite sources of them, which I am accomplishing by reinterpreting some of the geology layers in game and raw material recipes.
Carpentry - I have a successfully tested method by which I can stop carpenters shops from being able to use freshly cut logs, thereby fully forcing players to saw (or chop) and possibly dry the wood before use. This also lets me intervene in any basic wood recipes, to do things like requiring water tight barrels to have hoops and other requirements, if I want.
Masonry - Is mostly okay, but if possible, I'd like to severely cut down on the brokenness of rock pots being so incredibly useful. It's hard to find excuses for why, though, that make realistic sense. I can't just make stones water-permeable if that stone clearly would not ever be water permeable. This is a bit of a quandary. Because if I don't fix this, then it's pointless to have wooden hooped barrels or fancy glaze mechanisms, because nobody would ever use them.
Food and derivative products - I am almost done modding all plants (other than trees) and animals to be much more realistic and much more difficult to obtain products from. Including restricted growing hardiness zones (which isn't as complicated as it sounds. Just that certain biomes you have certain crop types only you can use that force different kinds of shortages etc. for gameplay variety. It also lends a delightful atmosphere of needing to judge the temperature from almanac type knowledge or environmental hints like pools evaporating, etc.), much fewer returns from farming and butchery, the need to actually preserve foods if you aren't in a cold climate (various means such as smoking, pickling, confits, lyeing, etc.), the removal of any "free" livestock (everything is either a grazer or must be otherwise fed).  Indirectly, this also makes clothing industries and similar more challenging.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 04:46:15 pm by GavJ »
Logged
Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Meph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • worldbicyclist
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2014, 04:46:23 pm »

Quote
Carpentry - I have a successfully tested method by which I can stop carpenters shops from being able to use freshly cut logs, thereby fully forcing players to saw (or chop) and possibly dry the wood before use. This also lets me intervene in any basic wood recipes, to do things like requiring water tight barrels to have hoops and other requirements, if I want.
I did write you a PM about that, but did not get an answer. Could you pease share the raws you used to make trees drop wood globs?
Logged
::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

GavJ

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2014, 04:49:09 pm »

They don't drop wood globs. They drop logs, which are made out of a type of wood that melts at any temperature you would find in game and with low specific heat. Which automatically changes their item types into globs instantly, like any melted solid.  Which you then add a "don't clean up" tag to.

And thankfully, globs don't have any language that says anything like "wood glob" so there's no loss of immersion, other than the glob icon being used, which is not that unreasonable looking for logs anyway.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 04:50:40 pm by GavJ »
Logged
Cauliflower Labs Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Meph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • worldbicyclist
Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2014, 04:55:22 pm »

So... could you please post the raws?
Logged
::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::
Pages: [1] 2