Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??  (Read 2244 times)

RocheLimit

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« on: July 04, 2014, 01:23:49 pm »

Hi!  Sorry if this has been posted before; quick google search and examination of the bug forums turned up nothing.  This is an odd bug I've noticed while doing single pick challenges.  The map is the exact same one Furnace Clans is on, tileset is Phoebus, and as clean an install as you can get (ignoring Cartilage modded into shells).

The setup I have is a 2z-tower with zero ground access to the enemy, and all enemies out of range of a legendary +5 Archer/Marksdwarf right up against fortifications.

Order the marksdwarf (pref. elite, so fortifications do not matter to him) to attack one of the out of range, inaccessible, enemies.  In this case, its a zombie well out of range of the tower.

The marksdwarf will then start machine-gunning bolts at everything (remember: everything is out of range) BUT the target.  In previous instances where I've seen this... oddity, I saw bolts fly 50+ tiles away at times.

In this case, the first bolt flies 33 tiles south and 11 tiles east... from a 1z high tower.  And nails a zombie in the upper front tooth.
The second?  Flies 39 tiles north and 33 tiles east, hits the zombie in the leg, and takes it down.

The marksdwarf will continue shooting at just about everything.  Until he runs out of ammo.  Cancel orders, he'll grab the next bit (I have an ammo stockpile, no bins, right under the tower).  Also interesting, I have never seen him take out his initial target.

-could not figure out how to post pics: therefore, imgur gallery link-
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Conjecturing, since I've seen this over multiple games, I imagine so long as the marksdwarf meets the following, he/she will have very high range:

A)Told to kill a target he is out of range of
B)Not able to access target to get closer
C)Has bolts
D)Is in a position where range is the ONLY issue (i.e. up against fortifications as low level marksdwarf, but otherwise clear line of sight to enemy)

O, and the guy hanging out by the u shaped bit of walls south of the tower?  He's my vampire janitor, dumping the bodies down into a shooting gallery 12 or so z-levels below.

m-logik

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 03:05:26 pm »

I've seen this occur in cases where the marksdwarves could get closer to the target if they chose. Then again, I've also seen marksdwarves who were very close to their kill order decide that there was no valid target because there was no walkable path to get to it (i.e. against nearby flying enemies or an enemy on the other side of a river).
Just last night I watched a squad stand in the entrance of my fort and empty their quivers firing at a slug man on the other side of the map; he was so far away that he could move three tiles before a bolt fired at him landed. Out of ten dwarves with full quivers, only one managed to score a lucky hit. This was after the same squad had spent half of the previous season standing on the ocean shore, steadfastly refusing to fire a single bolt at an immobile albatross less than 10 tiles away over the water. The same squad will perform admirably during sieges or against uninvited guests, some having gained titles.
Marksdwarves behave strangely sometimes, and there is not always a rhyme or reason to their strangeness. This is why the backbone of my military is always a seasoned melee squad or three.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 03:07:18 pm by m-logik »
Logged

Panando

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2014, 07:56:58 pm »

When i have marksdwarves kill-area against a pack of animals, then sometimes they'll do the 'orbital rail gun' thing (what I call the very long range marksdwarf), this especially occurs against flying creatures, but whether it's because they are flying, because they are unpathable while flying, or for other reasons I don't know. It's certainly useful for training because the marksdwarves don't waste time running around!
Logged
Punch through a multi-z aquifer in under 5 minutes, video walkthrough. I post as /u/BlakeMW on reddit.

RocheLimit

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2014, 09:47:31 pm »

That's a good point, and sounds very similar to this situation.

i.e.  target designated to be attacked
      target is out of range and impossible to path to

I think for the 'orbital rail gun' to take effect (I like that name) you also have to have things to shoot at the Dwarf would automatically shot at if they were at range, like Goblins or certain animals they would attack (Kea I think, or Mandrils)

I recall a few of my earliest forts where I would be trying to kill some fliers with recruit marksdwarves, and after the using the kill command on an out-of-range flier they would just sit there and not do anything.  My guess is that while the animals were not things they would normally shoot as they pass by, thus the Rail gun effect did not occur.  Interesting.

--Also, if someone might instruct me as to how to put images in posts, I would be most appreciative.--
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 09:49:44 pm by RocheLimit »
Logged

snjwffl

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2014, 10:08:41 pm »

I've never thought this was strange; I just assumed that elite (or maybe Legendary+<a certain number>) marksdorfs just had a hell of a range.  Try stationing non-elite marksdorfs with the elite ones and see who fires and who doesn't.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 10:10:32 pm by snjwffl »
Logged

Panando

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2014, 10:51:07 pm »

--Also, if someone might instruct me as to how to put images in posts, I would be most appreciative.--
Typically you upload your image somewhere, the site should give a link for the image, which will look something like this:
Code: [Select]
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj536/Panando/lol_zps4af785e0.png
You can also often click on an image to get a full view of the image, right-click on an image, and click "Copy Image URL" (that's the Chrome terminology, other browsers have something similiar), copying an image URL wont always work because of hotlinking protection, that's why it's better to use the link the photosharing site gives you. But often it will work, you then just paste the copied url.

You then put that link inside img tags like this:
Code: [Select]
[img]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj536/Panando/lol_zps4af785e0.png[/img]

And the result looks like this:


Personally I use photobucket for filesharing, it seems to have a long memory for uploaded images which is nice. There are other sites as well.

edit: Confirmed that 'Copy Image URL' works with imgur
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 10:53:32 pm by Panando »
Logged
Punch through a multi-z aquifer in under 5 minutes, video walkthrough. I post as /u/BlakeMW on reddit.

RocheLimit

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2014, 12:00:20 am »

I just tested it with a new recruit, zero experience in Archery or Marksdwarf, right up against the fortifications. 

Made sure he had a crossbow, a full quiver of bolts, then designated a zombie about 30 tiles away as a target.

Nothing.

So now the question is, at what level can they begin using the secret art of the Rail Gun technique?  I'd love to believe that its an elite/legendary marks-dwarf's true range, but 50+ tiles when the base range is just 20 is a bit high.

I do know I started seeing this behavior on other maps as soon as they became Elite (i.e. able to shoot through fortifications without being right next to them).  That's level 11, right?

--Thanks for the info about posting pics!--

greycat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2014, 07:51:41 am »

I just tested it with a new recruit, zero experience in Archery or Marksdwarf, right up against the fortifications. 

Made sure he had a crossbow, a full quiver of bolts, then designated a zombie about 30 tiles away as a target.

Nothing.

Can he see the target from where he is?  I don't know what the range on dwarven eyesight is, or whether skills like Observer affect that.  (Observer definitely seems to be related to detecting hidden enemies that are nearby, but I don't know about distant, non-hidden enemies.)
Logged
Hell, if nobody's suffocated because of it, it hardly counts as a bug! -- StLeibowitz

m-logik

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2014, 09:09:22 am »

So I guess the real question would be: Is this intended behavior?

On the one hand, it makes sense that a better marksdwarf would have a longer effective range. However, an accurate shot fired from such a distance that the target has an opportunity to move before the bolt reaches it has no chance to hit unless the creature happens to have moved toward the bolt. This creates a strange situation for our dwarven snipers. The less skilled ones will have a better chance of striking a target than the more skilled ones because the least likely place for the target to be when the bolt arrives is where they were standing when it was fired.
Logged

RocheLimit

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crossbow Range... 30+ tiles??
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 06:50:55 pm »

After taking care of other pressing matters, I checked back with my new crossbow dwarf recruit to find he had attained lvl 1 in marksdwarf and lvl 1 in archery.

I repeated the test.  I chose a target that he could 'see' (about 25 tiles south of his position, while he was right up against south-facing fortifications), and told him to kill it.

Here was his position:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He began to use the Railgun.  Very, very, inefficiently, but he started shooting at a target about 30x30 tiles away.

Stat Comparison: Legendary +5 vs. New Recruit

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Link to the gallery showing the shot.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

--The images worked!  Thanks, Panando!--