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[scriver]

A human writer can't use copyrighted Warhammer material without paying for a license.

Neither should AI. If an AI is trained on Warhammer material, it uses warhammer material every time it writes. Therefor the company responsible for it should pay a license to Games Workshop to be allowed to train the AI on their IPs. Alternatively, similarly to how radio have to pay royalties every time they play a song, or libraries have to pay "royalties" every time they loan out a book, AI companies could be obliged to pay a sum of money to the owners of the material they trained the AI on every time somebody uses the AI to generate something.

[Criptfeind]

A human writer can't use copyrighted Warhammer material without paying for a license.

Neither should AI. If an AI is trained on Warhammer material, it uses warhammer material every time it writes.

I'm not totally sure what I believe in such cases, but to play devils advocate, is this really the case? A human can't legally use copyrighted/trademarked material in their writing, but they can read warhammer stuff and then write a science fantasy story set in a galaxy dominated by a corrupt and decaying human empire where enhanced super soldiers use psychic powers to fight against a wide array of enemies both human and non, and so long as they don't use actual copywrited terms they are safe from being sued by Frank Herberts estate.

So what makes the AI different here? If humans take in stories and then can reformulate them into one ones well using old concepts and ideas legally, why can't AI? Maybe AI lacks spark of true creativity (although at this moment at least I find that slightly hard to define) that sets it apart from a human author and is just putting words it's read into positions that seem on average correct, but it's not like the creativity of a work is the defining feature for it's legality, is it?

It feels like perhaps training AI is different then just a human reading something then making their own work. I'll agree there, but I'm not sure really how.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm not totally sure what I believe in such cases, but to play devils advocate, is this really the case? A human can't legally use copyrighted/trademarked material in their writing, but they can read warhammer stuff and then write a science fantasy story set in a galaxy dominated by a corrupt and decaying human empire where enhanced super soldiers use psychic powers to fight against a wide array of enemies both human and non, and so long as they don't use actual copywrited terms they are safe from being sued by Frank Herberts estate.

So what makes the AI different here? If humans take in stories and then can reformulate them into one ones well using old concepts and ideas legally, why can't AI? Maybe AI lacks spark of true creativity (although at this moment at least I find that slightly hard to define) that sets it apart from a human author and is just putting words it's read into positions that seem on average correct, but it's not like the creativity of a work is the defining feature for it's legality, is it?

It feels like perhaps training AI is different then just a human reading something then making their own work. I'll agree there, but I'm not sure really how.

Stuff the AI creates might be in a grey area where you can justify it as being cool beans, the problem is the AI itself is a commercial product made using GW stuff, made without license

[nenjin]

Consider the designer drug argument.

Legislators can only make a specific chemical compound illegal. If you swap out a few ingredients, you have a new drug that has to be specifically legislated against to control.

What if AI art becomes the same? Is it a SM? We know them by their pauldrons and the Aquila. What if an AI changes both sufficiently that it can be argued it's no longer GWS classic Space Marine look but something different?

[Loud Whispers]

Consider the designer drug argument.

Legislators can only make a specific chemical compound illegal. If you swap out a few ingredients, you have a new drug that has to be specifically legislated against to control.

Nah the law on drugs has changed a lot in the last twenty years, so you see a lot more successful cases or settlements from one pharma comp suing another over a biosimilar infringing upon their biologic drug. You even get successful cases where one pharma comp sues another successfully, even though the biologic molecule in question is so complex neither company is aware of its exact composition or chirality. Or the very common case where the court has trouble coming to a certain ruling, because the companies involved in the case are the only ones in the world who know how to make their biologic drug, and they don't want to reveal the exact process to manufacture it, in which case how do you determine if someone has infringed upon another's patented drug? Answer: you just do a settlement to avoid eating away all your money in pointless legal fees

What if AI art becomes the same? Is it a SM? We know them by their pauldrons and the Aquila. What if an AI changes both sufficiently that it can be argued it's no longer GWS classic Space Marine look but something different?

It's not about the stuff the AI makes. It's about the AI itself. I mean GW already goes after people who make "angry space soldiers" and "exploding space bug spores," and they have tried to copyright things like "space marines, lasguns," and all of warhammer fantasy got killed because they realised you can't copyright the Holy Roman Empire. Orks became Orruks, guardsmen became Astra Militarum Soldarium Maximus Quintus Epictetus and other brilliant copyright friendly names, like all space marines becoming Primaris Adeptus Astartes led by the brilliant Chapter Overmaster Biggus Dickus. Anyone remember the lawsuit GW lost when another company was making minis for GW codex units, that GW did not produce a model for? It directly led to so much of the tyranid codex getting cut, tanking the GW share price for a month.

Those are other issuses though. This isn't like Starcraft vs 40k, where Blizard were making a 40k game but then converted it into their own original IP. The argument here is that the AI is itself a commercial product which has been produced using GW copyright protected IP. This is a similar argument that artists have made regarding AI trained on their art without permission or license. Most are not claiming or focusing on the art produced itself, but rather on the fact that someone else is profiting from licensing commercial software that only functions because it used their work for free

[Loud Whispers]

Another round, sir?

[Jopax]

One thing about AI made stuff that has become apparent in the ongoing shitshow it's made in the art community at large is that the stuff it makes isn't so much based on the training data but for the most part is made from the training data, if that makes sense. Where certain specific prompts wouldn't just make a piece 'inspired' by a certain artist but would produce an almost exact copy of a certain work by that artist.

I'm not sure if the writing bots work on a similar or same principle but I wouldn't be surprised if they did. And while creating a commercial product on someone elses IP without compensation or license is bad enough, if it turns out that the product itself will outright replicate chunks of the IP in question in certain conditions then that's doubly damning.

I hope this shit gets regulated and fined into a fine paste, because the amount of damage it's done in just the art community is fucking depressing.

[MaxTheFox]

I have no issue with independent use of AI, or crawling of works by AI, because let's be honest I have a very lax view of intellectual property. After all, nothing is lost in training, so I simply cannot consider scraping to be theft. I use art AI for PFPs in places and text AI for RP.

However, commercial use of AI should be regulated as it can put writers out of a job. I don't think it should be completely banned but pure AI work should not be copyrightable. Which the strike did good enough so I'm happy.

I won't care if someone scraped my work into an AI model. Saying this as an author btw.

Also PTW I like Warhammer.

[Laterigrade]

Remembered another chaos xenos race, there's a Khornate daemon world that goes through cycles. Powerful champion arrives, turns the world into a massive gladiatorial world dedicated to themself, rules for ages, maybe gets overthrown and replaced a few times, eventually tensions boil up and everyone dies in a combined slave revolt and attempted coups. All the while a race of alien beetle-men serve as slaves, prodding things along to keep the cycle going, because it is their world and they are farming the offworlders for a grand sacrifice to Khorne. At the end of each cycle they arm up, ensure everyone else on the planet is completely destroyed, then the powerful ones go back into hiding and wait for the next cycle. Can't remember their name at the moment, they were in a novel I read about a decade ago.

Wow, this is such a cool idea. I love the space WH has for things like that.

[MaxTheFox]

Remembered another chaos xenos race, there's a Khornate daemon world that goes through cycles. Powerful champion arrives, turns the world into a massive gladiatorial world dedicated to themself, rules for ages, maybe gets overthrown and replaced a few times, eventually tensions boil up and everyone dies in a combined slave revolt and attempted coups. All the while a race of alien beetle-men serve as slaves, prodding things along to keep the cycle going, because it is their world and they are farming the offworlders for a grand sacrifice to Khorne. At the end of each cycle they arm up, ensure everyone else on the planet is completely destroyed, then the powerful ones go back into hiding and wait for the next cycle. Can't remember their name at the moment, they were in a novel I read about a decade ago.

Wow, this is such a cool idea. I love the space WH has for things like that.

I wish GW gave more spotlight to minor xenos.

I like the Hrud in particular. They're basically 40K Skaven! Except they literally age everything around them to death.

[BlackFlyme]

Tried my first two games of 10th the other day as Space Wolves. Got absolutely stomped by Orks in the first game, but my opponent conceded in turn 2 of the second game because they had to leave.

[Loud Whispers]

Tried my first two games of 10th the other day as Space Wolves. Got absolutely stomped by Orks in the first game, but my opponent conceded in turn 2 of the second game because they had to leave.

I always wonder what an augmented 500 year old supersoldier thinks moments before they're mobbed by 100 mushrooms who were born yesterday

[Egan_BW]

They don't doubt for a second~

[pisskop]

Truthfully its probably something like 'Where's that promethium'?

[Grim Portent]

In a few of the books they tend to spend their time thinking of how vile and perverse orkz are when confronted by them. Sometimes they marvel at how tough and brave they are, but mostly they curse their unwholesome strength and instinctual savagery.