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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 658007 times)

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1215 on: January 26, 2015, 12:40:37 am »

Will we also be getting combat styles and per-weapon skills/attributes, similar to instruments?

He literally says that it's something that he and Zach had planned. We'll probably get those in another development session when he is looking into combat stuff, which he isn't atm.

Here's a question that is somewhat less dev related and more fun:
Of the poem varieties/styles/forms that you're adding, what's your favorite?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 12:49:50 am by smjjames »
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Align

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1216 on: January 26, 2015, 05:04:14 am »

 
Does the new need system that replaced breaks utilize zoos, statue gardens, and similar ilk at all?  Or will those need to wait for their own new zones and associated needs?   Have you considered modable zones with modable needs?
I would expect all those existing zones to still be used for Idle dwarves, and those who are just filling a need to socialise without drinking or singing.


Do dubious believers have lower spiritual needs (less breaks for prayer or whatever they do)?
How will dwarves fulfil their needs when there's no appropriate zone? Prayer could be done wherever I suppose, but socialising or merrymaking seems like they'd need some sort of organization. Or do they just get increasingly intense bad thoughts?
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1217 on: January 26, 2015, 08:53:46 am »

He also talks about stats and even a generator for the instruments, so yes, that pretty much got answered.
Huh. I guess it could be an instrument generator. I took it that the music generator would instead be informed by the instrument stats in the civilization.
Toady twittered that it is an instrument generator.
Does the generator try to generate each style of instrument for each entity, or are there some ways to control the output if we don't want, for example, wind instruments for a given entity?
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cephalo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1218 on: January 26, 2015, 11:59:08 am »

I'm a bit concerned by 'skill-like' stats for instruments. The shear number of skills in this game, and the complex interactions between them, are one of the things that puts a fairly large burden on the player, making 3rd party tools like Therapist a necessity for many. If there isn't an overhaul of the skill system planned, I would just go with ordinary skills for each instrument. I don't think we need 'skill-like' anything.

I suppose that randomly genned instruments will require randomly generated skills. Sounds ugly.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1219 on: January 26, 2015, 12:10:11 pm »

I'm a bit concerned by 'skill-like' stats for instruments. The shear number of skills in this game, and the complex interactions between them, are one of the things that puts a fairly large burden on the player, making 3rd party tools like Therapist a necessity for many. If there isn't an overhaul of the skill system planned, I would just go with ordinary skills for each instrument. I don't think we need 'skill-like' anything.

In the short term, it's only a necessity insofar as it's also a necessity to optimize dwarves' roles and have a perfect fortress.  In the long term, there'll be more autonomy (e.g. work crews) and less reliance on micromanaging.
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Baffler

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1220 on: January 26, 2015, 12:41:22 pm »

Instrument skills (as well as dancing and poety) probably won't have a labor attached to them anyway, my guess is that they're just something a dwarf levels while they're BS'ing with their friends at the pub.
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1221 on: January 26, 2015, 12:51:02 pm »

Do dubious believers have lower spiritual needs (less breaks for prayer or whatever they do)?
How will dwarves fulfil their needs when there's no appropriate zone? Prayer could be done wherever I suppose, but socialising or merrymaking seems like they'd need some sort of organization. Or do they just get increasingly intense bad thoughts?
My guess is that a dwarf will still want about the same amount of time off, they'll just apportion that according to what is important to them.

And merrymaking does not require an organized party.  It's just that random merrymaking in the workshop parts of the fortress could lead to stress for the more dutiful citizens.  "Urist, this is neither the time nor the place... No, seriously, stop it now... Urist, have you ever heard of a Fell Mood?"
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crapabear

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1222 on: January 26, 2015, 01:31:52 pm »

Now that inns will (I'm assuming) exist in the world, will townspeople in adventure mode stop automatically giving us permission to sleep in their homes whenever we ask? "Sure, I'd hate for you to get attacked by bogeymen, but... Come on, man, there's an inn right down the road!"
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1223 on: January 26, 2015, 02:23:08 pm »

I'm a bit concerned by 'skill-like' stats for instruments. The shear number of skills in this game, and the complex interactions between them, are one of the things that puts a fairly large burden on the player, making 3rd party tools like Therapist a necessity for many. If there isn't an overhaul of the skill system planned, I would just go with ordinary skills for each instrument. I don't think we need 'skill-like' anything.

I suppose that randomly genned instruments will require randomly generated skills. Sounds ugly.

No, that would be professions. Skills aren't quite so bad.

Uronym

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1224 on: January 26, 2015, 10:20:23 pm »

118 skills is a lot. As I understand it, Toady wants to replace it with a "knowledge" system, accompanied by more general skills at some point; like a good fighter with knowledge mainly in, say, swords, or an entertainer with knowledge of flutes.

But some of the skills we have right now, I really cannot understand...

Gelding? Really?
Crutch Walking? I've never seen someone go exceptionally fast with crutches. Is that a Paralympic event?
Lye, Potash and Soap Making seem strangely specific as well. As I understood it these were just basic tasks rural farmers did.
Milker? Is that the skill of not getting kicked? What effect does this one even have?
Pump Operator? Do you ever get better at turning the screw/cranking/whatever?

Others seem to be awkwardly categorized. For instance, what exactly is different between a mason and a stonecrafter? Or a bowyer and a carpenter? And then there are the social skills. I really don't think it works that way in real life... Talking with your friends for a few days won't necessarily make you a Legendary Comedian or a Great Liar... or is this the secret?

I assume that at some point there will be a rewrite of this, as there will be a rewrite of many things, this being alpha and all. I hope it has less skills, too.
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What I think we're saying is we need dwarves to riot and break things more often.

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1225 on: January 26, 2015, 10:23:55 pm »

For instance, what exactly is different between a mason and a stonecrafter? Or a bowyer and a carpenter?

I can play Dwarf Fortress; thus, I can win national Smash Brothers tournaments. They're both just video games, right?

I can play the guitar fairly well; therefore, I can play the violin fairly well. They're both just string instruments, right?

Uronym

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1226 on: January 26, 2015, 10:26:44 pm »

I can play Dwarf Fortress; thus, I can win national Smash Brothers tournaments. They're both just video games, right?

I can play the guitar fairly well; therefore, I can play the violin fairly well. They're both just string instruments, right?

Then we ought to have a throne-making mason skill, a table-making mason skill, a cabinet-making mason skill, a millstone-making mason skill, etc., as well as copies of all of those skills for every single material, including different varieties of stones, such as harder rocks and softer rocks (gypsum vs granite, for instance), and also different varieties of wood, and perhaps even a skill for every single alloy, right?
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What I think we're saying is we need dwarves to riot and break things more often.

Mr S

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1227 on: January 26, 2015, 10:30:43 pm »

More to the point, yes increased skills does indeed affect the time needed and/or quality produced in many skills. That's why we do indeed see historical precedents for these type of specialised fields. Especially in preindustrial settings.

Case in point. A person would certainly take their dog to the vet to be neutered (gelding), but to the groomer to get a trim (shearing, animal caretaking, et al).

Edit: I see what you did there. And indeed there are also real life goldsmiths, silversmiths, pewtersmiths, coopers, warrens, cobblers, ad neaseum. And in future we will likely see Dorfs differentiating their trade based on their material preferences, skills, economic factors, etc. I'd hardly say that development of the game is at a point where narrowing options is in order.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 10:34:39 pm by Mr S »
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1228 on: January 26, 2015, 10:33:10 pm »

I can play Dwarf Fortress; thus, I can win national Smash Brothers tournaments. They're both just video games, right?

I can play the guitar fairly well; therefore, I can play the violin fairly well. They're both just string instruments, right?

Then we ought to have a throne-making mason skill, a table-making mason skill, a cabinet-making mason skill, a millstone-making mason skill, etc., as well as copies of all of those skills for every single material, including different varieties of stones, such as harder rocks and softer rocks (gypsum vs granite, for instance), and also different varieties of wood, and perhaps even a skill for every single alloy, right?

I see nothing wrong with those being knowledge and/or subskills, really. Great mason who knows how to make all types of furniture is given talc where they're not familiar with it and make a crappy table, once, then (due to being great) quickly picks up on the skill.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 10:35:14 pm by Putnam »
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1229 on: January 26, 2015, 10:42:16 pm »

I can play Dwarf Fortress; thus, I can win national Smash Brothers tournaments. They're both just video games, right?

I can play the guitar fairly well; therefore, I can play the violin fairly well. They're both just string instruments, right?

Then we ought to have a throne-making mason skill, a table-making mason skill, a cabinet-making mason skill, a millstone-making mason skill, etc., as well as copies of all of those skills for every single material, including different varieties of stones, such as harder rocks and softer rocks (gypsum vs granite, for instance), and also different varieties of wood, and perhaps even a skill for every single alloy, right?
Well that would just be ridiculous complexity. Plus it would mean legendary granite chair makers would have absolutely no ability to make gypsum tables which is just absurd. Then that would increase memory usage by making an incredibly large amount of things tracked by each dwarf. Also it would mess with modding support. You can't make new skills, but if the skills are limited to gabbro chair maker then you have the gabbro chair making skill increased by making cheese chairs because the system wouldn't be good for that. Now it might seem like I'm missing the point, but if you ask anybody who's knowledgeable on the subject they'd say that making crossbows is very different from making chairs, but chairs and tables are pretty similar. It's even different from a gameplay perspective, crafters make trade goods, and masons or carpenters whatever make furniture. The downsides of this significant realism increase is: a few people get confused when they tell their mason to make stone crafts. Then I suppose all the people complaining about "OH MY GOSH TWO SKILLS FOR WORKING WITH STONES THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR ME" could be considered a downside.
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