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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 658009 times)

King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1230 on: January 26, 2015, 11:31:07 pm »

I think a better model than having separate skills for stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, would be to use the same model as the fighting and archer skill. That is, you add another skill "stone working" that will help the labors of stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, in addition to the existing skills. And there's doesn't need to be a strict hierarchy, just two skills associated with one labor. So for example you could have wood crafting share a skill with bone carving, and another skill with wood cutting, but wood cutting would not help with bone carving.

cephalo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1231 on: January 27, 2015, 09:51:17 am »

I think a better model than having separate skills for stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, would be to use the same model as the fighting and archer skill. That is, you add another skill "stone working" that will help the labors of stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, in addition to the existing skills. And there's doesn't need to be a strict hierarchy, just two skills associated with one labor. So for example you could have wood crafting share a skill with bone carving, and another skill with wood cutting, but wood cutting would not help with bone carving.
Maybe the whole skill system could use some cleaning up. That doesn't sound too hard. Some kind of soft-hierarchical system like King Mir suggested above across the board. Any product that has no quality levels should fall under some umbrella skill. All farmers can milk a cow, a yeti, whatever.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1232 on: January 27, 2015, 10:53:17 am »

Oh yeah? I bet you to milk a cow.

Thing is, most of those things do require skills. In the case of milking you can take a lot longer or even get injuried (or end up dead) if you dont know what you are doing. However since tamed animals are 100safe and docile in the game you dont get to see that.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1233 on: January 27, 2015, 11:54:49 am »

Milking is a very difficult skill, and cows can be dangerous - and they should be potentially dangerous in DF, too. In a game where giant sponges were once dreaded, livestock should pose some threats to reckless farmers.
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Align

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1234 on: January 27, 2015, 12:03:45 pm »

I think I'd prefer if that degree of realism waited until the game lets dwarves try and learn without necessarily doing, like by observation of others, or planning carefully.
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Uronym

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1235 on: January 27, 2015, 01:18:48 pm »

While I think the number of skills is a little bit silly, perhaps we should also consider their effects;

Do you think that the current skill system is a bit "gamey"? It is hard to tell how it works, exactly, but, for instance, a Legendary Miner can mine something like 15 faster than an unskilled miner. Is it just a multiplier placed on the time/quality for most jobs? Do you think it is reasonable as it is? What to you envision in its place, if anything?

I am not a Miner, or a Milker, or a Mason, but to me, the skill differences seem a bit extreme. In the case of Milker, or other non-quality skills generally, perhaps it would make more sense if a highly skilled worker simply failed less often, instead of performing the job 15 faster. Or maybe it would be better to not have skills, but something more simple: you either know it or you don't.

Urist knows how to milk a cow. (from father Rakust)
Urist knows how to make hardwood furniture. (from personal experience)
Urist does not know how to construct metal mechanisms.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1236 on: January 27, 2015, 02:06:49 pm »

I think I'd prefer if that degree of realism waited until the game lets dwarves try and learn without necessarily doing, like by observation of others, or planning carefully.

Learning milking without doing it is almost impossible. Practical experience is necessary. Watching alone should not increase skill past novice, though I would like to see demonstrations like those for combat with other skills. Dwarven children should also be able to be apprenticed and educated.
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Sizik

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1237 on: January 27, 2015, 02:57:48 pm »

I think a better model than having separate skills for stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, would be to use the same model as the fighting and archer skill. That is, you add another skill "stone working" that will help the labors of stone-crafting, masonry, and engraving, in addition to the existing skills. And there's doesn't need to be a strict hierarchy, just two skills associated with one labor. So for example you could have wood crafting share a skill with bone carving, and another skill with wood cutting, but wood cutting would not help with bone carving.
Maybe the whole skill system could use some cleaning up. That doesn't sound too hard. Some kind of soft-hierarchical system like King Mir suggested above across the board. Any product that has no quality levels should fall under some umbrella skill. All farmers can milk a cow, a yeti, whatever.
(starting to get suggestiony, but...)
I think having a (non-random) procedurally-generated skill tree would be a good extension of this, with certain broad categories (i.e. the skills/labors we have now) pre-set. As an example, say Urist is assigned to be an armorer, and he makes a copper gauntlet. Before he makes it, he has some existing experience in the armorsmith skill. Afterwards, he gets experience in the following skills:
  • Copper gauntlet making
  • Gauntlet making
  • Copper armor making
  • Copper item making
  • Metal gauntlet making
  • Metal Armor making
  • Armor making
  • Metal item making
  • Forge use
Most of these skills are created on-the-fly based on the item he created. If Urist later makes a copper breastplate, then his experience with copper gauntlets helps him more than if had first made iron boots instead (which would only let him apply "metal armor making" and below).
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1238 on: January 27, 2015, 03:18:11 pm »

I could see that massively ballooning though.
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Sizik

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1239 on: January 27, 2015, 03:23:34 pm »

Yeah, I was thinking it might be easier to store a list of items the dwarf has crafted, and use that to derive the above skills behind-the-scenes.
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cephalo

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1240 on: January 27, 2015, 05:14:22 pm »

Oh yeah? I bet you to milk a cow.

Thing is, most of those things do require skills. In the case of milking you can take a lot longer or even get injuried (or end up dead) if you dont know what you are doing. However since tamed animals are 100safe and docile in the game you dont get to see that.

In game terms, there is none of that though. If there were, or if the milk was different somehow according to skill, then it's worthy of the player's attention. Otherwise, just lump it in to some general skill.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1241 on: January 27, 2015, 06:01:37 pm »


In game terms, there is none of that though. If there were, or if the milk was different somehow according to skill, then it's worthy of the player's attention. Otherwise, just lump it in to some general skill.

Livestock animals are far too tame in a game where carp were once dreaded. Farming in DF now is so easy it can be barely described as such.
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King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1242 on: January 27, 2015, 07:45:11 pm »

In addition to having skills labors per labor, as described above, it would make sense to have multiple labors per skill. So gelder, milker, and shearer could use a single "animal handling" skill.

Really what needs to happen is a decoupling of skills and labor, but still keeping an interface that shows what skills go with what labors.

Another problem is that many skill shouldn't really go above "proficient". You can't really be a legendary crutch walker, or furnace operator, but some skill is involved.

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1243 on: January 27, 2015, 07:59:19 pm »

Skills and labor already are decoupled. There are even separate profession/labor/skill tokens.

Magnus

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1244 on: January 28, 2015, 02:58:24 am »

How will vampire feedings be handled in relation to taverns and breaks? Will they still be called "On Break"?
Currently they display On Break when searching for victims, but according to the devlog the On Break status is being replaced in favor of tavern visits... will a vampire respect this even though it doesn't drink? If someone displays "Going to Tavern" while heading to the bedrooms it's pretty much a dead giveaway of vampirism... Any thoughts?

And I know it might be an intended feature, but I still want to ask, is vampire alcoholism going to be looked into?
It seems strange to me that a being who killed thousands before coming to your fortress should be reduced to a shambling wreck after a couple of years there. Is it possible to only have them display that they need alcohol in the thoughts page, but not actually have them affected by withdrawal?
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