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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 656139 times)

Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1275 on: January 31, 2015, 04:24:06 pm »

Thx for the quick answer.

However that link is already more than four years old. Many new features, many new items (like all the tree tiles) were added in the meantime. "Hitting the wall" as Toady says appears due to that for sure closer than back then. Any change in that attitude? Also I am not referring to graphics, which for sure will cause major and long time dedicated work. Just extending it from 256 tiles to some more. Additional tiles could be derived from e.g. UNICODE. I am no specialist regarding copyright. But as most of the UNICODE-tiles are from various recent/historic alphabets, I can't believe they are more restricted than ASCII.

Interesting thing about moving to Unicode is that it would give access to a lot of different characters that can perfectly fit the game, and for free. While still staying in text mode for quicker development without all the complications of graphical tiles that Toady mentioned.
Of course, the relevant display tiles would still need to be created (not all of them can be used, of course). Then again, if you go Unicode, you can essentially go freeform. Got a few hundred tiles the game'll never use on its own, such as control characters that would just be blanks? Characters that would be too large or detailed to fit the default resolution? Pack 'em with game-relevant tiles instead.
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BenLubar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1276 on: January 31, 2015, 04:55:26 pm »

I'd like to see something similar to TWBT integrated into the core where graphics can be assigned to item types and materials. Basically, anywhere DF has to look up the color or character for a tile, allow graphics to intercept that. Currently, there's a way to do that for creatures, but no way for me to make an up-down staircase have a different tile than a floodgate or prevent those graphics from being used when the letter X is used in a textual context.

Until then, I'm sticking with either the default CP437 tiles or TWBT if I really want to use a custom tileset.
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lethosor

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1277 on: January 31, 2015, 06:01:26 pm »

This is not the place for suggestions. Besides, moving to Unicode would require rewriting a large portion of the display code that relies on 8-bit display tiles.
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Greiger

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1278 on: January 31, 2015, 06:18:55 pm »

This may be a little suggestion-y but I'll toss it in here and people can feel free to shoot it down if it is, but I'm legitimately curious if it's planned to be looked at.  With the look into the multi tile critters and the pathfinding changes that will require, were there any thoughts on tackling other parts of the pathfinding that is a bit lackluster? Like flier pathfinding, or things like one way or grasp_required kinds of pathfinding that came up back when ropes for climbing was mentioned?

And second just in-case that first one does get thrown out.  Will races without alcohol_dependent eventually take offence when visiting your fortress if there is no water whatsoever available, or will they perfectly happy to drink mug after mug like water like our dwarves do?
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King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1279 on: January 31, 2015, 08:40:13 pm »

And second just in-case that first one does get thrown out.  Will races without alcohol_dependent eventually take offence when visiting your fortress if there is no water whatsoever available, or will they perfectly happy to drink mug after mug like water like our dwarves do?
Historically, water was unsafe to drink, so booze, possibly watered down, was the norm. Maybe elves wouldn't mind drinking crudely filtered swamp water, but it hardly seems right for them to expect it.

Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1280 on: January 31, 2015, 09:43:41 pm »

Water wasnt unsafe to drink, people drank booze because it tastes good, it was the coke of medieval times. Also the booze argument doesnt hold up if you have to make booze with water because you need some kind of base, so you will have all your heavy metals and stuff in your booze. With the alcohol concentrations of around 3-6% in beers you cant kill many of the natural bacteria that would settle in beer (actually for that effect you should go north of 20%) after its opened, thats why people added hops later (which we still need iirc) because it keeps the beer form spoiling.


here is an good Article on the issue

Another issue would be that many Asians and American Natives cant (generally) hold theyr liquor because they hadnt developed any cooping mechanism for alcohol. Did those people get more sick? Were they dying left and right because of either drunkenness or to much water? I would guess not ;)

edit: as further point, in medieval Germany the right to brew beer was given out by the King (Baron, duke whatever) and most often only big cities or certain wealthy families could get that right. There was even a so called Beerwar between Görlitz ind Zittau in the Lusitanean league. If beer and booze would have been so essential to survival this whole Setup wouldnt have existed but everyone would have been allowed to brew. Instead beer was a lowgrade luxury and trading it sometimes including long distances was profitable. That would have happened if you children and LIfestock would have died left and right.
Speaking of which, lifestock, your fricking cows drank water every day, if the water was so seriously bad then these should die too.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 09:56:58 pm by Heph »
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EternallySlaying

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1281 on: February 01, 2015, 01:09:44 am »

Unboiled water is potentially unsafe to drink. The only reason unboiled water from a faucet is usually "safe" to drink today is because chemicals are added (like chlorine), and the pipes are pressurized and cut off from the environment. Alcohol keeps longer than boiled water as well, lowering the amount of fire-starting materials you need to carry or find while traveling. Livestock are now medicated with lots of antibiotics now as well to avoid disease in herds.

With the advent of Taverns, will some people who come in be lone/small groups of merchants? Obviously if they start coming in force as soon as you declare a tavern zone, it would mean a constant supply of things for rock goods; but if they only came with enough export profit, it could balance.

With music and such, will some people sell services for goods. Like paying for a performance(s) with trinkets, or for a traveling weaponsmith to work for roughly 10% of what he makes (or some other agreed upon condition)? On that note, if you have a renowned legendary flute-dwarf, can you sell his services for goods?

I read earlier that music can increase the bravery of dwarves, assuming this is true, Will we be able to assign military music dwarves? So we can march in to the beat of the drum British style, or a flute Spartan style?

edit: had stupid thought petting my cat... COULD WE HAVE CATS BE INSTRUMENTS? A dwarf could pet it to make it purr, and change the rate of petting to change the pitch of the purr. The cat could decide to just leave, causing riots as the music stops, or could scratch attackers when brought to battle. Finally an important way to use cats. Scamps could !!code!! this himself!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 01:40:52 am by EternallySlaying »
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1282 on: February 01, 2015, 06:36:17 am »

People did drink water in the past. They also suffered regularly from dysentery, cholera, sweating sickness, and other illnesses caused by drinking dirty water. Running water, and that produced by melting ice or snow, was usually safe, but wells contaminated by dead animals or sewage could easily wipe out most of a village. Deaths by disease and starvation were so common that they were the main reason population did not rise above a certain level.

Livestock, especially then, were not usually very healthy specimens, being full of parasites and weak compared to their modern, selectively bred counterparts. Murrain (disease of cattle and sheep) killed huge numbers of animals throughout the Middle Ages.

While it is easy to exaggerate how dangerous drinking water was, it was only sensible to do so frequently if the source was clean (a spring, or melted snow). Still water could be safe to drink, but if an animal died in the water and was not dragged away or eaten quickly then it could soon become very nasty indeed. Past people and animals were often ill and frequent pestilences kept population down.
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Man In Zero G

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1283 on: February 01, 2015, 10:35:19 am »

And the above is why a dwarf gets bad thoughts from drinking stagnant water, and cleaning their wounds with stagnant water can cause infections. It's the start of a larger framework of disease and medicine that isn't in yet.
So, bringing it full circle to the original question:
They may or may not be unhappy if there's no water being served in your tavern, but they're definitely going to be unhappy if the only water you've got available is stagnant 'murky pool' water.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1284 on: February 01, 2015, 10:40:58 am »

A dwarf would not ask for water in a tavern. ETHIC: ASK_FOR_WATER_IN_TAVERN: UNTHINKABLE.

Humans and elves might want some, in which case the purity might become an issue.

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Man In Zero G

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1285 on: February 01, 2015, 10:43:21 am »

The original question I was answering was about non-dwarven visitors.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1286 on: February 01, 2015, 10:44:39 am »

Cleaning wounds with booze should also be an option, and non fruit based alcohol should require water to brew.
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Man In Zero G

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1287 on: February 01, 2015, 10:47:00 am »

Cleaning wounds with booze should also be an option, and non fruit based alcohol should require water to brew.
These are suggestions that have been around for years.

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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1288 on: February 01, 2015, 02:27:51 pm »

Then that is all the more reason for them to be added at last. They are fairly well supported.
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eternaleye

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1289 on: February 01, 2015, 05:04:19 pm »

One thing regarding Unicode is that there's a good bit of variation in what that can mean:

1.) Direct mapped to single codepoints
In this case, Toady'd be using it the same way he currently uses ASCII - one cell is one character; you just have a bigger menu to choose from. This might allow, say, ☭ for elves if Toady decided it. However, it could at least give us mechanisms as ⚙, the various arrows for minecart route designations (maybe ➿ for rollers?),  coffins as ⚰, a proper pick character in ⛏, chains ⛓...

2.) Indirect mapped from IDs to codepoints
Toady gives IDs to things that can occupy a graphical cell, and those are then mapped (likely in a moddable way) to Unicode codepoints, which are then displayed. With this, users could individually decide that elves should show up as ☭ (I so would).

3.) Indirect mapped from IDs to graphemes
Toady creates IDs for things that can occupy a graphical cell, and then the mapping is to graphemes - single visual units that may be made of multiple codepoints, generally as base + list of combining characters. This would allow you to have, say, Forgotten Beasts be represented as their base character with a strange combining character (or several) - for instance, a cat of ash with an extra eye? Gray c͒

4.) Indirect mapped via display-engine-specific abstraction
Here, each backend (text, SDL, etc) would specify what it can display in a tile; it instantiates the first ID mapping that can support it. This could thus do ASCII on non-unicode terminals, Unicode on uxterm, rendered Unicode or (if configured) a tileset on SDL, etc. Might be implemented using SFINAE, or otherwise.

Also, as far as "needing more tiles", there's a very good set of libraries for rendering text to an in-memory image that support unicode: In particular, Pango + Harfbuzz + Freetype. Arbitrary unicode-based tiles could be rendered from fonts on the fly. (This might make adding custom tilesets _easier_ in some ways; drop in a font.)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 05:30:18 pm by eternaleye »
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