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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 656149 times)

mifki

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1470 on: February 27, 2015, 11:36:30 pm »

Even a basic addition of another character page is not a rewrite I feel comfortable doing.  The DF part is fine -- it'd take a while, but I could do the DF side of it once I knew what data to push where.  However, I have no idea how to set up additional texture atlases while still keeping the speed up in OpenGL, assuming it wouldn't require a completely different approach, so I can't really start.  It's way on the back burner for this reason.  The game could probably use another thousand characters at this point to remove fundamental overlaps.  That's potentially independent of the item graphics problem, though they both run into the texture atlas issue (if you want more than a few item pictures).  Item pictures are also complicated by material considerations -- those aren't prohibitive, but take us into graphics territory that I don't want to get mired in.

I don't see any problems with OpenGL part here. Anyway DF rendering code works with one texture only and loads all the tiles into it, getting pointers to some data for the loaded tiles. Then renderer just finds that data by tile number for each changed tile, and does its job. I don't think any graphics card exists now with maximum texture size < 2048x2048, that gives us 16k 16x16px tiles - more than enough.

Screen buffer currently uses 4 bytes for each screen tile - tile number, fg, bg, brightness. It doesn't seem to be very difficult to change it so that tile number is `short` instead of `char` (assuming that you use functions from the graphics lib and don't access these bytes manually all over the place). Then the old code will work as before but you'll be able to pass tile numbers >256 where you want and load them from raws. Other options are possible as well like making better use of the brightness byte - currently only one bit is used, but another several bits can be used to alternate tileset as the first bit alternates set of colours (again, it has nothing to do with OpenGL textures - if I'm not mistaken, it should be only several lines to change in the graphics code). And yes, Unicode characters can be used so that you don't have a problem with the actual tile images you mentioned earlier.

Another interesting question is with colours - here we don't have a problem with data types, and I think I saw a piece of code in DF that seems to approximate colour token values to 16 available colours. Being able to load more than 16 colours from the config file and use them for approximation seems to be much easier than all that tileset stuff. I don't care that much about colours though.

Of course it's all just a theoretical talk in case it helps you to understand graphics stuff, it all depends on your priorities.

Verdant_Squire

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1471 on: February 27, 2015, 11:43:42 pm »

Hopefully it isn't too late, but since music/poems/dances seem to be civ specific, will there also be a degree of cultural diffusion where nearby civilizations learn/adopt some of the traditions of their neighbors? It'd be neat if stuff like local cultural regions and stuff would emerge over time in game.
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Charles2531

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1472 on: February 28, 2015, 12:14:04 am »


With the additions of poems now, obviously poems will need to be written on something at some point. Is it right to assume we will see some type of paper industry added into the game, along with actual book production. Have you thought much about how this will be implemented, for example, whether books have to be handwritten or if there will instead be printing presses? Possibility of informational texts that could help dwarves learn new skills (this might be most balanced without printing presses as such books would therefore be time-consuming to produce, and therefore expensive)?

Also, any chance of some form of Level-of-Detail pathfinding in the future? I posted a suggestion a couple weeks ago for what I think would be a fairly simple and efficient way of implementing it if you're interested. More efficient pathfinding would open up a decent amount of processing power for more processor-intensive features in the future.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 07:59:22 pm by Charles2531 »
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Urist McGoombaBrother

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1473 on: February 28, 2015, 12:47:28 am »

Thx for all your replies.

Quote from: Toady One
I'm not sure what multi-level means.  Like upgrades?  Maybe I forgot to paste that in from the question.  We'll probably get to the de-building-ification of workshops before we do anything like upgrades, which'll accomplish something similar through furniture.


I mean by that to be able to mod in a workship with a multi-level-structure similar to the metalsmith forge, where you first select a material (Iron, Steel, ...), then a category (weapon, armour, ...) and finally a product (short sword, axe, ...)

Let's say you want to mod in additional types of steel and want to assign all steel types to a custom created seperate Steel Forge. As far as I have understood you currently have to make tons of unique reactions, one for each possible product and finally get one huge list in the custom workshop with "Make Steel Axe/Helmet/Large Serrated Disc/etc./Make Nickel Steel Axe/Helmet/Large Serrated Disc/etc./Make Damascus Steel Axe/Helmet/Large Serrated Disc/etc. ... With multi-level I mean you can create a custom Steel forge, and as with the standard forge you first select material (Steel, Nickel Steel, Damascus Steel), then define the categories like weaponry etc and finally all the possible products are automatically assigned to those categories according to the Material tokens (ITEM_HARD, ITEM_WEAPON, etc.), you assigned to the specific materials.

Zarathustra30

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1474 on: February 28, 2015, 01:32:28 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Putnam
(on reaction categories)
Is there finalized syntax for that yet, or will that have to wait?

It's fixed assuming it doesn't get any more interesting.  In any reaction's def, assign it to a category with [CATEGORY:<token>].

[CATEGORY:<token>]
 [CATEGORY_NAME:<text>]
 [CATEGORY_DESCRIPTION:<text>]
 [CATEGORY_PARENT:<token>]
 [CATEGORY_KEY:<key>]

The subtokens to define the category's details just need to appear below the CATEGORY somewhere once.  The nesting can go as deeply as needed.  It only shows reaction categories in the relevant workshops if your fort's entity has a permitted reaction within the category nesting, which will hopefully avoid some clutter in complicated mods.  We'll have to see what else is necessary as we go.  Things like material assignments linked to categories (to handle stuff like glass coming out into the raws) are elevated to "low-hanging fruit" status now, but aren't in the game.
Emphasis mine.
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How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??

Spitzkrug

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1475 on: February 28, 2015, 02:30:38 am »

Will we hear the music, or it will be just described as text?
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expwnent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1476 on: February 28, 2015, 02:47:24 am »

Will we hear the music, or it will be just described as text?

I very much doubt it.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1477 on: February 28, 2015, 03:32:43 am »

Will we hear the music, or it will be just described as text?

I very much doubt it.

I am now just picturing someone hearing an angelic chorus whenever reading the descriptions.
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Zarathustra30

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1478 on: February 28, 2015, 05:53:15 am »

Wait a second...

For the reaction category syntax, is it like this
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

or like this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1479 on: February 28, 2015, 06:14:56 am »

Thanks, Toady!

Wait a second...

For the reaction category syntax, is it like this
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

or like this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The latter, from Toady's wording:
It's fixed assuming it doesn't get any more interesting.  In any reaction's def, assign it to a category with [CATEGORY:<token>].

[CATEGORY:<token>]
 [CATEGORY_NAME:<text>]
 [CATEGORY_DESCRIPTION:<text>]
 [CATEGORY_PARENT:<token>]
 [CATEGORY_KEY:<key>]

The subtokens to define the category's details just need to appear below the CATEGORY somewhere once.  The nesting can go as deeply as needed.  It only shows reaction categories in the relevant workshops if your fort's entity has a permitted reaction within the category nesting, which will hopefully avoid some clutter in complicated mods.  We'll have to see what else is necessary as we go.  Things like material assignments linked to categories (to handle stuff like glass coming out into the raws) are elevated to "low-hanging fruit" status now, but aren't in the game.
So the category token goes into the reactions, and one of the reactions also includes the category details.
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Zarathustra30

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1480 on: February 28, 2015, 08:28:23 am »

That's what it sounded like at first, but there are a couple of weird possibilities, like what happens when there is the same [CATEGORY] token but different [BUILDING] tokens, or if the sub-tokens were distributed across reactions. I think the other interpretation is valid if "reaction def" referred to the entire [OBJECT:REACTION].

Though, thinking back on it, one could replicate interpretation 1's functionality by adding [REACTION:NULL_REACT] on top of the first [CATEGORY] token and leaving the rest of the reaction empty.
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crapabear

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1481 on: February 28, 2015, 11:18:20 am »

Toady mentioned a "test myth generator" several times in this last reply, but I think this is the first time I've heard it mentioned. Does anybody remember it being mentioned elsewhere?

If not, what kind of experiments are you doing with your test myth generator? Is it something that came up because of the addition of temples, or something that may end up being folded into starting scenarios? What kinds of myths are we talking about, and how crazy can the results get?
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1482 on: February 28, 2015, 11:32:18 am »

Toady mentioned a "test myth generator" several times in this last reply, but I think this is the first time I've heard it mentioned. Does anybody remember it being mentioned elsewhere?

If not, what kind of experiments are you doing with your test myth generator? Is it something that came up because of the addition of temples, or something that may end up being folded into starting scenarios? What kinds of myths are we talking about, and how crazy can the results get?
He mentioned it a few times in the reply before this one as well. It's a generator he created for the upcoming Artifacts portion, presumably at first to give these artifacts some context, but apparently it evolved (if it didn't start there anyway) to include changes to how religions work, divine relationships, and things. I've tried to gather the quotes from that reply below.


Quote from: Neonivek
Does the temples being fully developed suggest a possible use for the gods and more dynamics between the religions? Or when finished just be focused on individual temples and inside fortress dynamics?

and guiltishly doing two

Will religions be fleshed out in terms of how their tenants, outside spheres and the individual gods, work? Such as if they allow multiple god worship, accept new gods to the pantheon, and what they consider to be profane? I guess I don't really need a specific answer I guess what I mean is: Is there going to be more to religions outside the individual gods?

Oddly enough that is what I am really interested in because one of the things I found interested was the religion dynamics within the game. For example some wars or disagreements being made because of the worship of deities often within the same religion (Oddly often with gods of death... which makes sense 'fictional world' wise but not 'world history' wise) and I was just like "Is that god the evil god of this pantheon? or are they just fighting over godly supremacy".

Not for these tavern releases, but we'll be seeing two key pushes for religion with the artifact stuff and then with the start scenario stuff.  There'll be a more coherent myth generation first, and then there'll be global religious concerns with the religious embark scenarios.  The frameworks that come up there will also answer some of the questions about status and relationships within the religion in ways that can't be addressed now, and the test myth generator we've been working with goes well beyond individual gods.

The current religious disagreements involving gods are sphere-based I think, so it's mostly over some vague conceptual disagreement that sort of amounts to "evil god to my god".  I don't recall if there are numeric penalties just from the god being a different god, though they do penalize non-belief.  We'll have more information to work with there, though it's anybody's guess what gets focused on first once the frameworks are improved.

Quote from: Inarius
In relation to religion ,is any sort mythology generation (god X father of god Y, genealogy tree, relationships between gods like in most mythology or things like this) an idea you are working on, or will gods remain independant from each other ?

We've been toying around with a test generator and have quite a bit lined up now for the world gen artifact releases which will follow the tavern releases.  All sorts of new stuff should make it in.


Quote from: Japa
With the addition of temples, will religious festivals and observances ever come into play?

He he he, somebody already pointed out the "ever".  But yeah, we're hoping to have those, and they're on the dev pages.  We thought we were going to start with fairs as the first scheduled community events, but now I'm not sure.  The myth stuff we do prior to the first artifact release might clarify it a bit, though it might not.

Quote from: CaptainArchmage
With temples are we going to have new furniture (such as, altars)? Or will that be covered by existing furniture (like tables)?

It's still under consideration.  It depends on how far we want to go into temples before we have the additional information which will be granted by the next two major cycles (world gen artifact myth stuff, and religious start scenario framework stuff).


Quote from: MrLupenTails
Can we create our own custom deities through a noble or by using the temple? Will dwarves be able to change religion? Can we enforce punishment on heresy or blasphemy? Will some religions be more violent? Will some religions be more peaceful?

Edit: When I asked the last two questions, I was referring to world generation scenarios. It would suck if all religions seemed the same for each race.

We're not doing too much with it now, but things will be more interesting when we get embark scenarios with religious components.  I don't expect all of the religions to be the same at that point.  I'm not sure what you mean by custom deities.
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Naryar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1483 on: February 28, 2015, 02:36:21 pm »

These song descriptions are sodding great. Don't add anything to the gameplay?

The Elder Scrolls series has a hundred odd books that didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. Diablo II and III had a bunch of superfluous dialogue options/random bits of lore that gave backstory and info into the world and didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. The Lord of the Rings, Song of Ice and Fire, Warhammer, Snow Crash, Moby Dick, and thousands of other bits of media include other bits of 'fluff' that don't directly impact the main focus of the game/book/experience, but would make each thing more shallow if those bits of lore and fluff, etc, were missing.

Here's the fantastic thing about all of it: it's optional. It's not shoved into your face. You have to actively make an effort to go and look at it, and you can ignore it if you're not interested. And if you aren't that's fine. Not everyone read the pages and pages concerning who was wearing what suit made by which company in American Psycho. Not everyone read any of the books in the Elder Scrolls. Not everyone gave a damn about the pages upon pages of derail on whatever topic in Snow crash. The point is that some people were interested and did. This is why the Silmarillion, the World of Ice and Fire book, or the Black Library exists:

Because some like to delve deeper.

I'm not complaining about the presence of fluff, every game needs some and Dwarf Fortress more than most other games. I'm complaining about the unnecessary complexity of it.

And I read the books in Morrowind. It helps immersion and makes you feel things. Also, it's a book, in a game !

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1484 on: February 28, 2015, 02:50:25 pm »

These song descriptions are sodding great. Don't add anything to the gameplay?

The Elder Scrolls series has a hundred odd books that didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. Diablo II and III had a bunch of superfluous dialogue options/random bits of lore that gave backstory and info into the world and didn't add anything to the game. Still loved the fact they were there. The Lord of the Rings, Song of Ice and Fire, Warhammer, Snow Crash, Moby Dick, and thousands of other bits of media include other bits of 'fluff' that don't directly impact the main focus of the game/book/experience, but would make each thing more shallow if those bits of lore and fluff, etc, were missing.

Here's the fantastic thing about all of it: it's optional. It's not shoved into your face. You have to actively make an effort to go and look at it, and you can ignore it if you're not interested. And if you aren't that's fine. Not everyone read the pages and pages concerning who was wearing what suit made by which company in American Psycho. Not everyone read any of the books in the Elder Scrolls. Not everyone gave a damn about the pages upon pages of derail on whatever topic in Snow crash. The point is that some people were interested and did. This is why the Silmarillion, the World of Ice and Fire book, or the Black Library exists:

Because some like to delve deeper.

I'm not complaining about the presence of fluff, every game needs some and Dwarf Fortress more than most other games. I'm complaining about the unnecessary complexity of it.

Quote
You alone, though you come again and again, can unmake him. Whether I allow it is within my wisdom. Go unarmed into his den with these words of power: AE GHARTOK PADHOME [CHIM] AE ALTADOON. Or do not. The temporal myth is man. Reach heaven by violence. This magic I give to you: the world you will rule is only an intermittent hope and you must be the letter written in uncertainty

elder scrolls got some "unnecessary complexity" too
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