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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 656151 times)

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1485 on: February 28, 2015, 03:55:01 pm »

Descriptions do add to gameplay, because they allow players to know what the masterworks their dwarves have made actually look like. In a game with DF's crappy graphics, that is very important.

Did people really skip large sections of American Psycho? How did they know when the section ended if they were not reading it?
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Edmus

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1486 on: February 28, 2015, 08:12:45 pm »

When engravings and statues can be commissioned, will this extend to being able to demand poets and musicians compose pieces pertaining to specific HFs or events? 
Sorry if this's already been asked or answered, I've not been watching development as closely as I want to.
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Curious Key

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1487 on: March 01, 2015, 03:01:20 am »

When engravings and statues can be commissioned, will this extend to being able to demand poets and musicians compose pieces pertaining to specific HFs or events? 
Sorry if this's already been asked or answered, I've not been watching development as closely as I want to.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I can just imagine a self-absorbed mayor commissioning loads of statues of himself, and the rebellious masons depicting him as being surrounded by maggots in every one. :P
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WordsandChaos

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1488 on: March 01, 2015, 06:46:02 am »

-snip-

I'm not complaining about the presence of fluff, every game needs some and Dwarf Fortress more than most other games. I'm complaining about the unnecessary complexity of it.

And I read the books in Morrowind. It helps immersion and makes you feel things. Also, it's a book, in a game !

I don't really have a great deal of musical theory knowledge, but I'm glad it's there. If you're not going to be able to understand all the mega-technical stuff, and apparently some of it is just plain bizarre from a western musical perspective (which is also cool), then pretty much everything below the, "The chorus is fast. The verse is slow." etc can be ignored. The top bit pretty much gives us the outline of the music in a more sensory fashion. We can piece some idea of slow chanting priests over the top of a fast moving mandolin. It could be elaborated on in terms of fluff for the average music listener, but I don't think the technical details detract from it. 

utunnels

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1489 on: March 01, 2015, 07:44:35 am »

Since there will be taverns, doesn't it mean there will be more units on the map? Is it possible to have more population related settings?

When population reach 100, my fps never goes beyond 30. So I'm afraid I won't be able to have monarches. It would be nice to remove some population limits like we can set pupulation caps now.
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Farmerbob

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1490 on: March 01, 2015, 10:32:10 am »

A thought just struck me.  There are cultures where breaking dinnerware is part of some types of celebration.

Two tavern and mug related questions:

First, have you considered adding 'breaking mugs' as a celebratory tavern activity?  The breaking of the mugs would generate happiness in the craftsdwarf who made the mug, and the breaker of the mug, with the happiness generated being dependent on the craftdwarfship of the mugs?  Dwarves would always collect the best mugs they could from the stockpiles.

Second, have you considered allowing artifact mugs and musical instruments to be added to taverns as part of the décor, increasing the happiness of dwarves that see them in much the same way as levers can be admired?  Perhaps do the same with figurines, jewelry, and scepters in temples?
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1491 on: March 01, 2015, 11:08:04 am »

Second, have you considered allowing artifact mugs and musical instruments to be added to taverns as part of the décor, increasing the happiness of dwarves that see them in much the same way as levers can be admired?
You ate a Cracker Barrel recently, didn't you? :)
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1492 on: March 01, 2015, 08:07:14 pm »

Since there will be taverns, doesn't it mean there will be more units on the map? Is it possible to have more population related settings?

When population reach 100, my fps never goes beyond 30. So I'm afraid I won't be able to have monarches. It would be nice to remove some population limits like we can set pupulation caps now.

You can adjust that in the entity raws, y'know.

utunnels

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1493 on: March 01, 2015, 08:28:22 pm »

You can adjust that in the entity raws, y'know.
I know, but editing raws will cause some complications, for example, when I want to install a new graphic pack.
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The troglodyte head shakes The Troglodyte around by the head, tearing apart the head's muscle!

Risen Asteshdakas, Ghostly Recruit has risen and is haunting the fortress!

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1494 on: March 01, 2015, 08:45:30 pm »

Entity raws aren't edited by graphics, last I checked.

utunnels

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1495 on: March 01, 2015, 09:03:19 pm »

Entity raws aren't edited by graphics, last I checked.
Fine, I'll give it a try. But can I really have a king if I add a REQUIRES_POPULATION tag under monarch? Editing raws seems more difficult than editing d_init, and if I understand correctly, I have to generate a new world.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 09:05:17 pm by utunnels »
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The troglodyte head shakes The Troglodyte around by the head, tearing apart the head's muscle!

Risen Asteshdakas, Ghostly Recruit has risen and is haunting the fortress!

Andeerz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1496 on: March 02, 2015, 01:53:11 am »

The music and poetry generation is incredibly exciting to me.  I feel it opens up the framework for all sorts of memetic goodness!

Might the general ideas underlying the music/poetry style generation perhaps be co-opted for the generation of not only musical and poetic styles, but also other styles of art (or any other kind of meme) and even technologies?  Also, with the potential future for book writing and some of the proposed/current mechanisms for information and knowledge transfer (storytelling, etc.), will generated cultural (and possibly technological) knowledge be able to spread, persist, change, and even be lost?

I could easily foresee this applying to architectural styles, for example, to make culturally distinct building layouts and structural motifs generated by one culture that could also be spread to and modified by other cultures.  Or, even more exciting, perhaps even combat styles, designs of tools, weapons, workshops, and other technology could be generated, and varied in style and function in a manner based on this as a foundation!  Though I think this would have to be in a manner that factors in perceived needs, prerequisite knowledge (on the individual or population-wide, or higher level depending on level of abstraction), as well as economic, cultural, and other interconnected factors that are crucial in determining how and when inventions and discoveries come about.   :D
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 02:09:49 am by Andeerz »
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1497 on: March 02, 2015, 03:10:24 am »

The march report says that there's dancing styles too.

Combat styles seem exceedingly likely to be learned in a similar fashion, knowledge-wise, from previous statements.

Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1498 on: March 02, 2015, 07:28:44 am »

Quote from: Toady One
The obstacle isn't the multi-species fort stuff so much as the number of people for that one, which is more of a hill-dwarf problem.  If I remember, the refugees can already choose your fort as a destination for camping next to, but they don't actually enter the fort.  It'll probably be best to put that one off until we have the broader infrastructure in place for hill-dwarves (which are just a group of numerous associated critters living near the fort).

First... wow, I just now realized "hill-dwarves=the folks in the hillocks, deep dwarves=the fortress folks we usually play with"... the things you can more fully appreciate after playing both adventurer and fortress mode shouldn't be ignored, I wish I had tried out adventurer mode long before I finally did.

As for the quoted bit there, yeah, you mostly see refugees show up sitting just outside of fortresses, often just on the edges of mountain tiles, sometimes you can find them along rivers near stinky-treehumper sites, I've found some just outside of dark pits and fortress as well. They all sleep constantly though, I think they got missed in the army bugfix. I've encountered tent sleeping army groups but only at night, refugees tend to always be sleeping sadly, as it seems like it would be interesting to find out what happened, help out, take advantage of opportunities, and so forth.

________________________________________________________________
Regarding multi-racial forts, I recently began my initial steps into modding my game here and there, mostly just a few tweaks and stuff, my biggest step so far has been getting a race incorporated into the world, producing gear and wearing it correctly, surviving world-gen, and not taking over the map in the process. Though part of that was finding that non-dwarf fortresses can be really interesting, and that removing the [TOLERATES_SITE:CAVE_DETAILED] tag and just leaving the [LIKES_SITE] one intact means they actually stick around in the forts for the most part where before I had to struggle to avoid them sprawling across the map taking over everything.

Where was I going, oh yeah, multi-racial forts. I learned to my surprise (though it seems obvious enough now since you can reclaim from other dorf civs) that I was able to move my dorfs into an entirely non-dwarf fort and set up shop. That works normally until I was trying to get the angels (modded race is steel angels, mini-bronze colossus but steel, etc) to trade with their neighbors and made a new world after fixing it so they would, I found one of the reclaim options wasn't lost from a beast or dragon or whatnot, it was taken over by goblins apparently.

So I set out, start to explore the fort and get spammed with ambush notifications, angels are dangerous as hell when hostile so I said heck with it and spammed dfhack's tweak makeown on them until they were all part of my civ and I didn't have to risk being killed. Now, they show up as tame instead of no job or whatnot, so it isn't ideal, but it is kinda a type of multi-race fort as is, right?

Well, I was still expecting the angels to make trade depots so I decided to add [CIV_CONTROLLABLE] to see that they performed all the reactions, could build the right stuff, and so forth. Well, during world gen I found another case of a fort being taken over (angels don't avoid evil areas like dorfs do) so I moved in expecting to have to dfhack convert some residents.

Well, boy did I get a surprise:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeaaaahhhhh, finally tally after getting every nook and cranny visible wound up being 234 angels and dorfs, I think it is like ~90 angels, ~150 dorfs, unfortunately the dorfs won't do jobs since the civ I'm playing with is an angel one but yeah... oh, did I mention said angel civ is at war with the gobs?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Honestly I was expecting there to be gobs in there, or at least a goblin law-giver or something... not over a hundred dorfs.

Still, I assume the only problem with multi-race forts is said issue of the second race being listed as "tame" instead of being able to do jobs and such normally.
_______________________
Now for a question:

I could swear I remember seeing you say you wish there were an easier way to switch between fort and adventure modes. Do you have any ideas on how you would be going about this, or when you would be shooting for pushing it out?


Right now you can do it with dfhack mode set > 2 (arena mode) > loo(k) and (a)ssume control of a creature > mode set > 1 (adventurer mode), then dfusion > 2 (adventurer tools) > 2 (change adventurer) and you should be able to travel, save, retire at locations, and so forth normally. You can do it the other way but I think you need to toss in the mode set > 4 (unretire fortress) step or it won't display the interface right, but I haven't tried that way in a while as it is easier to just retire the adventurer nearby and then unretire the fortress again normally.

With the addition of advfort letting me do things like start in a fortress, dismantle some forges with steel anvils, melt them down into bars, dismantle a magma smelter downstairs to make a magma furnace, and bit by bit forge myself a set of exceptional to masterwork gear, it's clear that there are a lot of areas of overlap that already work surprisingly well, but being able to more readily step into a dorf and explore the world or lead a battle or do some risky construction (normal dorfs won't climb a sheer wall to build a floor 10 z off the ground too happily) and then hop back into fortress mode would be amazing.

I saw something about wanting to be able to add a way to take part in the games directly, sounds like that might be just a couple steps away from what I mentioned.
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Urist Arrhenius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1499 on: March 02, 2015, 02:50:59 pm »

The music and poetry generation is incredibly exciting to me.  I feel it opens up the framework for all sorts of memetic goodness!


I could easily foresee this applying to architectural styles, for example, to make culturally distinct building layouts and structural motifs generated by one culture that could also be spread to and modified by other cultures.  Or, even more exciting, perhaps even combat styles, designs of tools, weapons, workshops, and other technology could be generated, and varied in style and function in a manner based on this as a foundation!  Though I think this would have to be in a manner that factors in perceived needs, prerequisite knowledge (on the individual or population-wide, or higher level depending on level of abstraction), as well as economic, cultural, and other interconnected factors that are crucial in determining how and when inventions and discoveries come about.   :D
I would love to see distinct architectural styles enter the game. Many community challenges rely on employing specifically architectural styles and limitations, and having a cultural basis would be really interesting. I would love to have a fort where my dwarves preferred everything was constructed using sloped roofs and central pillars surrounded by statutes, or whatever gets generated. Even if that cultural preference didn't effect gameplay in any way, besides giving me an architectural style to work within.
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