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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1842975 times)

HavingPhun

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2070 on: June 12, 2015, 03:07:05 pm »

Toady, I am interested in how you generate the local maps in dwarf fortress, such as the maps that your adventurer and dwarfs run around in. How do you make the edges of each local map match up? How do you make sure that the elevation of a local map corresponds with the elevation of the world tile that it is within?

Also, what would you say was the most difficult and or interesting piece of creating the world generator for DF. Excluding legends and history. Is there anything else that you would like to eventually add or change with the world generation?


« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 04:09:45 pm by HavingPhun »
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Spish

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2071 on: June 12, 2015, 03:08:17 pm »

Regarding the new effects of alcohol:
Today's update suggests that excessive alcohol will effect characters, including Dwarves, adversely. If lack of alcohol continues to effect Dwarves badly, and too much alcohol also effects them badly, how does one achieve the right balance in fortress mode?
Do we just try to keep everyone busy, or what?
I think a good way to balance it would be to have satisfied citizens be willing to settle for water if available, while unhappy dwarves guzzle more booze than they need, as a way of drowning their sorrows in alcohol. Or partying if they have nothing better to do. Oh look, someone else beat me to it.

On that note it would be cool if a drink's value (and psychological effectiveness) was directly correlated to its alcoholic potency.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:58:12 pm by Spish »
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2072 on: June 13, 2015, 12:40:40 am »

Did I imagine this or were there ever plans to allow world gen to be restarted/the length between retire/abandon to be tweaked so you could do the normal couple of weeks or set it to like a year, ten, a hundred?
Toady, I am interested in how you generate the local maps in dwarf fortress, such as the maps that your adventurer and dwarfs run around in. How do you make the edges of each local map match up? How do you make sure that the elevation of a local map corresponds with the elevation of the world tile that it is within?

Also, what would you say was the most difficult and or interesting piece of creating the world generator for DF. Excluding legends and history. Is there anything else that you would like to eventually add or change with the world generation?

Spoiler: Danger Will Robinson (click to show/hide)

I know sometimes I get the urge to fort it up, more often I want to run around being a murderhobo, but sometimes I just get the urge to gen worlds and poke at the histories to see what I find. That's a hell of an achievement, making world-gen interesting enough that folks just want to play with it instead of the game at times.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:05:28 am by Max™ »
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stinkasectomy

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2073 on: June 13, 2015, 02:48:22 am »

concerning inebriation becoming a syndrome, will this be related to body size ?
will a tall, broad, muscle-and-lard-bound dwarf never be drunk? and if an already small dwarf has a few combat amputations, will they die as soon as they touch a drop?

actually, better examples: will gnomes (being the smallest guzzlers) now run into booze stockpiles and just die. and will polar bears or other large drinkers be getting drunk at all?

having size based effects seems logical but gnomes will make things hard. while having drunkenness be size independent could lead to people (me) deliberately leaving a barrel of booze out to get and giants or ettins drunk before sending in the military.

that said, I was reading the raws and I noticed that dwarves have a liver that is 50% larger than a humans, so...

do you plan on making drunkenness (and/or any other syndromes) strength/duration be related to liver size?
(and then maybe make gnomes livers take up most of their chest cavities?)
 
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Nahere

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2074 on: June 13, 2015, 02:52:52 am »

Syndromes can already have the SIZE_DILUTES tag, so presumably alcohol will just use that.
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stinkasectomy

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2075 on: June 13, 2015, 04:09:27 am »

Syndromes can already have the SIZE_DILUTES tag, so presumably alcohol will just use that.

i knew they CAN but i was unsure if they all do. a quick check of the wiki informs me that
    SIZE_DILUTES
    SIZE_DELAYS
are both optional tags
I only have a basic understanding of syndromes, but having the same syndrome (based on dwarves being usually a little dizzy but sometimes dying in rare cases) seems that gnomes in particular would often drink themselves to death while larger bears would hardly get tipsy, not to speak of giants

adult gnomes are                ~15,000cm3
adult dwarves are               ~60,000cm3
adult giant sloth bears are  ~933,000cm3  (the largest non-semimegabeast CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER)
adult  giants                  ~9,000,000cm3  CURIOUSBEAST_GUZZLER
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 04:34:37 am by stinkasectomy »
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2076 on: June 13, 2015, 04:11:24 am »

All of them having that is irrelevant, since we're talking about booze syndromes in particular.

Amperzand

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2077 on: June 13, 2015, 06:57:50 pm »

A separate alcohol-tolerance stat, built into the organism, might make more sense. Dwarves, for instance, should be more resistant to incapacitating drunkenness than humans, despite being smaller.
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2078 on: June 13, 2015, 07:07:08 pm »

Maybe it could be based on liver size, since livers are three times the relative size in dwarves.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2079 on: June 13, 2015, 07:28:06 pm »

I would expect immoderation to also play a factor, as that directly relates to how much excess a dwarf is supposed to go to. (And is naturally higher for dwarves.)
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2080 on: June 13, 2015, 07:31:47 pm »

OK, well, I think I have how I want to articulate this, now... 

To start with a metaphor, I remember that the game Cities XL was originally meant to be a sort of MMO SimCity, but the company couldn't put together the money or servers for an MMO, and went bankrupt, so the company that bought the game just sold it Singleplayer.  The game was originally meant to have each city require resources that it couldn't produce, itself, so you had to set up trade deals with other player's cities.  In the released game, however, when your main city needs something, you have to save it, then start your own new city to generate and trade away that resource you need, and start trade between your two cities. 

Much of the original idea behind Dwarf Fortress, as I remember it, was about how it would be cool to let players build a fortress, then, when they are done with it, they could revisit that fortress as an adventurer or something, and see the impact that fortress had on the surroundings.  Toady's talked about how he likes doing things like minting coins, then seeing how far abroad those coins can be found in other markets.  The whole "Losing is Fun" thing started, at least allegedly, as a way to encourage players to keep playing the same world over and over, because every continuation of play in the same world compounded the history and meaning of that world to the player.

Now, with retirement and caravans/taverns that allow for player fortresses to interact without crumbling, I'm wondering at the direction Toady wants to take with encouraging players to reuse the same worlds, building more and more forts that can interact.

Since I remember a large portion of why mineral scarcity was introduced was to accomplish something similar to this for the caravan arc down the road, where you need more constant trade between forts, I'm wondering if there's something similar to what happened in Cities XL planned for DF.

Furthermore, the only "multiplayer" DF has ever had has always been from "succession games", where saves were passed around.  Older suggestions at multiplayer were based around an idea that multiple forts could be played in the same year, and then at the turn of Spring, a save merging could take place to allow "simultaneous play".  This relied upon the continuation of world events largely only happening on an annual basis, and determined at year start, however.  The (relatively) recent world activation, however, shows that the world is to be running more-or-less constantly in the background, which scuttles any attempt at mock-simultaneous play without using some arbitrary limiters of how worldmap actions take place.

Toady, since we now have both retiring forts and you are adding in more free-wheeling caravans, traders, wanderers and hill-dwarves, plus there are going to be starting scenarios, I'm curious about how you want retired player forts to interact with active player forts in the long run.  Are you going to try to get towards a retirement system where forts have saved import needs/export capacities or other pushes/pulls upon new player forts?

(I.E. build a new fort to support the next fort or sustain your last fort. "The mountainhomes need steel, set up a mine, and export iron or steel." "The mountainhomes is rich in steel, now we need you to build a watchpost at this location and train these steel-clad but rookie soldiers into stalwart defenders of the realm.")

Do you consider potential goals like potential "mock-simultaneous" play or taking steps to encourage succession multiplayer across multiple forts (sharing world saves after abandoning/retiring) as a means of encouraging play in a shared history worthwhile?  For that matter, how much is this notion of compounding historic depth still a driver of your focus as a developer after all this time?

EDIT: Correcting typo
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 10:18:35 am by NW_Kohaku »
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2081 on: June 13, 2015, 08:30:24 pm »

I think that is sort of the direction where the embark scenarios are meant to go, though with the added depth of embark scenarios checking and adapting on the fly more fluidly, which may already be something he intended. As the saying goes he went to improve hauling and ended up creating the minecarts and physics to handle them.

Hmmm, I was just reading and thinking about the libraries and drunken behavior at taverns. A stern old elf waiting outside a library that unfortunately ended up next to a tavern, you pass by, he greets you, you ask if he needs any help with anything, he's like "yeah, can you go kill all those noisy jerks next door?", and you're like 'can I? I was just about to anyways!' or something.

We'll be able to drink ourselves into a stupor, scrawl bad poetry in a library book, fall into a coma, and die in the stacks, I can't wait.
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cybergon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2082 on: June 14, 2015, 04:42:43 am »

Are we likely to see some dwarves become the fort drunk?

Some? Become? Aren't they all already?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2083 on: June 14, 2015, 10:17:43 am »

I think that is sort of the direction where the embark scenarios are meant to go, though with the added depth of embark scenarios checking and adapting on the fly more fluidly, which may already be something he intended. As the saying goes he went to improve hauling and ended up creating the minecarts and physics to handle them.

I think that should be referred to as minecart "physics", because they behave very oddly, but anyway...

Asking for an explanation of intent can be more informative than an assumption, especially for a project that has gone on this long.  There can be evolution of intent over time, and it's worth asking whether Toady was making minecarts because he thought it was a pretty and interesting cog to spend time polishing, or whether he saw it as suddenly more immediately necessary to the overall machine than he previously did. 
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2084 on: June 14, 2015, 05:06:16 pm »

Hey, I never said they weren't odd, just pointing out that the thought process which starts from "hmmm, I think it's time to improve hauling" and ends up with me launching myself on repeatedly mid-air-adjusted parabolic arcs across entire worlds is... interesting to say the least, so I wouldn't be surprised to find something along those lines winding up in the embark scenario stuff.
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