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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1096399 times)

Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3390 on: February 01, 2016, 04:46:29 am »

Quote from: Random_Dragon
one reply you made implies that adventurers no longer being able to commit cannibalism and craft things (if modded in) from sentient body parts ( see issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171 ) was not intended behavior. Was that implication correct, or did I misunderstand something?

That's right.  I didn't remember changing anything relevant, but something apparently happened.  I atill haven't looked at what the old behavior was.

Ah, interesting. As far as I can recall, the old behavior was essentially no restriction at all. And even farther before that, it used to be that you couldn't butcher sentients in adventure mode at all, or possibly not unless starving. I think.

So in all three different instances, it's been an all-or-nothing approach to what can and can't be done.

In any case, thank you for the interesting answers as always.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 04:49:49 am by Random_Dragon »
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3391 on: February 01, 2016, 08:06:09 am »

Thank you for the answers, Toady... and the awesome game that gives those answers some context.
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cochramd

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3392 on: February 01, 2016, 10:38:25 am »

Quote from: cochramd
Does the number of goblins killed in a siege effect global goblin population?

Yeah, they are all real, but it doesn't know how to pull from outlying villages yet, so there's a limit on the area of the effect.  Global populations can also increase if there are enough of them, regardless of what you are managing at your fort.
Well, that certainly explains why the sieges always take a turn for the underwhelming after I crush a few big ones. Any plans to remedy that?

Quote
Quote from: cochramd
Toady, did you go and make cavern creatures hyper-fertile for reasons known only to you?

It's probably related to the bug fix that stopped creatures from requiring a marriage-frame-of-mind before breeding.
You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that giant olms and giant toads were having babies more often (though that might also be the case), I was saying that among giant olms and giant toads double and triple births are as common as single births.

3 new questions:

A) What exactly is a scholar doing when his job reads"Research!"?

B) My fort hit the wealth and population for FBs a long time ago. I got one, then didn't see any for over a decade. However, for the past 2 years, I've gotten one or two FBs per season, every season (not complaining, for the record). Is my drought and flood of FBs a coincidence that occurred because my embark was very far away from the stomping grounds of all but that first FB, or is there something deeper going on?

C) Related to the above, I've noticed that every time I do get 2 FBs in a single season, they come from different cavern layers. Is this a coincidence, or did you code "a cavern layer may only have a maximum of one FB appear in it per season" in somewhere?
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BlackFlyme

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3393 on: February 01, 2016, 11:55:34 am »

Well, that certainly explains why the sieges always take a turn for the underwhelming after I crush a few big ones. Any plans to remedy that?

Probably, once it is able to pull from populations a bit better.

Quote
You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying that giant olms and giant toads were having babies more often (though that might also be the case), I was saying that among giant olms and giant toads double and triple births are as common as single births.

They don't have [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE], so it's not supposed to be uncommon to have twins/triplets/more.

Quote
A) What exactly is a scholar doing when his job reads Research?

Oh, you know, just thinkin' about scholarly pursuits and stuff. Probably thinking about a new idea involving their chosen focus, or writing a book, or talking about his passion with others, or something. Scholars don't do too much as of yet, as mentioned.

Quote
B) My fort hit the wealth and population for FBs a long time ago. I got one, then didn't see any for over a decade. However, for the past 2 years, I've gotten one or two FBs per season, every season (not complaining, for the record). Is my drought and flood of FBs a coincidence that occurred because my embark was very far away from the stomping grounds of all but that first FB, or is there something deeper going on?

Distance affects MBs for certain. Not sure about FBs, as they have always seemed somewhat random to me. May be that they have been on the map, but weren't announced due to being within an unexplored area of the map, only to be revealed once they have entered a viewable area.

Quote
C) Related to the above, I've noticed that every time I do get 2 FBs in a single season, they come from different cavern layers. Is this a coincidence, or did you code "a cavern layer may only have a maximum of one FB appear in it per season" in somewhere?

Each layer has its own population values, so it may just be on a layer where they would normally reside, but I do not know. I have seen multiple beasts on the same layer, but they could have wandered between layers through natural tunnels that connect layers, or it may have been coincidence.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3394 on: February 01, 2016, 12:43:53 pm »

It feels silly to add to Toady's own words, but I'll comment anyway...

:
Quote from: Button
I've noticed that immigrants with extensive family histories have a lot more gods on their worship list than those that were generated without families, or with only their immediate families. Did you make it so children adopt the gods of their parents, or how do they decide? Does it use the same logic in worldgen and at the coming of adulthood in fortress mode?

Whatever the logic, when you get 3 or 4 rungs down a family tree dwarves end up worshipping every god in the pantheon, which is a pain. Is this an intended challenge, or a bug in worship list pruning?

In world gen, the children inherit the religions of their parents as they grow up, so it starts to add up.  The new temples turned this into a balance issue, which we haven't handled yet.  In dwarf mode, as an early convenience, religion is just passed from the mother to the baby at birth, so the problem isn't compounded, but it is also a sillier system.
:

I've had a look at  my fortress' single parent pair's children, and they all worshiped the deity of their mother (as Toady said), but in addition to that, most of them had one additional deity, which differed between the children. All of the additional deities were from the dwarven pantheon, though. Thus, if no pruning takes place, the females will continue to rack up more and more deities over the generations, so it seems the problem is actually compounded (but I'm very far from getting a second generation of children), and I guess few fortresses or worlds last long enough for multi generation accumulation to be much of a problem.
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cochramd

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3395 on: February 01, 2016, 12:44:39 pm »

Oh, you know, just thinkin' about scholarly pursuits and stuff. Probably thinking about a new idea involving their chosen focus, or writing a book, or talking about his passion with others, or something. Scholars don't do too much as of yet, as mentioned.
Those 3 things are covered under the Ponder X!Write! and Discuss X! jobs. It's not clear what Research! is.

Quote
Distance affects MBs for certain. Not sure about FBs, as they have always seemed somewhat random to me. May be that they have been on the map, but weren't announced due to being within an unexplored area of the map, only to be revealed once they have entered a viewable area.
Oh, believe me, it was NOT a case of FBs hiding out in hidden parts of the map, we're talking fully exposed caverns.

Quote
Each layer has its own population values, so it may just be on a layer where they would normally reside, but I do not know. I have seen multiple beasts on the same layer, but they could have wandered between layers through natural tunnels that connect layers, or it may have been coincidence.
Have you seen 2 come onto the map in the same cavern in the same season? I haven't, and I'm wondering if it's just a coincidence.
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CharonM72

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3396 on: February 01, 2016, 02:31:33 pm »

Quote from: Max^TM
Actually: Are you still hoping to be able to get the between-site/roadside taverns and/or inns working for a 42.xx bump, a la the big 40.14 world activation or 40.19 stress/emotion changes update? I recall there being difficulties getting them in while the rest was ready to push out but can't find if there was more stated about what your plans there were.

I still haven't quite figured out "small" sites.  It might be delayed until it fits in with a larger small-site push (like the lumber/mining/isolated temple/etc. stuff that'll be starting up with the related embark scenarios).  It would be nice to have stuff sprinkled all over without the associated overhead of the full site definition (bandit camps suffer from this now).

If we start getting more sites or site-like things, then will they appear in the exported Legends data? If so, are there plans to make their (and other sites') locations more accurate than the world tile they're located on? It would make searching the world much easier with higher accuracy, and with the recent development of parsing tools (DF Hack's extended legends exporter, Legends Viewer, Legends Browser, World Viewer, etc. have all seen substantial development recently) it is now easier than ever to browse the extensive and fascinating histories developed in world gen.
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3397 on: February 01, 2016, 04:04:25 pm »

Oh Armok yes, being able to ask an npc "which way is the nearest tavern/library/temple" would be awesome.

I know they have some of that code in place since you can ask whether you can stay the night and they will tell you there is a tavern/inn "some direction" as I recall.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3398 on: February 01, 2016, 05:23:21 pm »

Thanks for the answers, Toady!
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Nopenope

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3399 on: February 01, 2016, 07:49:13 pm »

How come Threetoe doesn't post devlogs often these days?
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3400 on: February 01, 2016, 10:25:15 pm »

Quote from: Random_Dragon
one reply you made implies that adventurers no longer being able to commit cannibalism and craft things (if modded in) from sentient body parts ( see issue: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9171 ) was not intended behavior. Was that implication correct, or did I misunderstand something?

That's right.  I didn't remember changing anything relevant, but something apparently happened.  I atill haven't looked at what the old behavior was.

Ah, interesting. As far as I can recall, the old behavior was essentially no restriction at all. And even farther before that, it used to be that you couldn't butcher sentients in adventure mode at all, or possibly not unless starving. I think.

So in all three different instances, it's been an all-or-nothing approach to what can and can't be done.

In any case, thank you for the interesting answers as always.
From what people used to say back in the day, you would only be able to butcher sentient corpses if starving, but you could eat the meat if it was available at any time. However, I once had a character get to starving, and then wait a whole 'nother day, sitting around the corpse of a sentient creature, unable to butcher it. So I'm not very sure about that being able to butcher them if starving thing, however I know that regardless of hunger you could eat the meat of a sentient if it was available. So now it's the reverse and you can butcher them under all circumstances, but can't eat them under any circumstances.
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Max™

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3401 on: February 02, 2016, 01:17:44 am »

I saw someone mention this but wasn't sure where or if it was a hopes thing or something they currently saw.

Besides the missing "harass a town" orders, do bandits give any orders to their lieutenants? I recall someone mentioned being told to kill a local lord and such, which would be very exciting, but I've never encountered it. The only hearth quests I've gotten from non-lords was a criminal gang asking me to take out a local beast.

I eagerly look forward to more stuff moving back into this system, there are so many ways it can go too.

I do note that your comment regarding local lords being "the most successful bandit leaders" puts some of the missions I've gotten to go take out very peaceful animal-person lords and ladies in a new light. "You must slay the gorlak/polar bear woman/coyote man lord/lady in the next town over. Blah blah, vile creature, blah blah." I walk over and say hi and they're super cool, made me feel kinda bad kicking the little dude in the big round head, but then I got into the hitman mindset with all the bandit camp orders.

It is nice that they pull from local troubles, lots of criminal gangs in nearby towns, you get sent after them, lots of megabeasts, go take care of 'em newbie! Even got asked to take out the master of a dark fortress "under the radar, to avoid starting a war" once, loving the update!
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martinuzz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3402 on: February 02, 2016, 05:23:10 am »

A) What exactly is a scholar doing when his job reads"Research!"?
Either your dwarf is on it's way to the library to do any scholarly job, and the research will change into ponder, discuss, read or write once he gets there,

or you borked it a bit by kicking your dwarves out of the library with a civilian alert. Will fix when you allow access to the library again. Dwarves might also snap out of it when you remove them from their scholar position in the locations screen.
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Button

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3403 on: February 02, 2016, 10:39:43 am »

It feels silly to add to Toady's own words, but I'll comment anyway...

:
Quote from: Button
I've noticed that immigrants with extensive family histories have a lot more gods on their worship list than those that were generated without families, or with only their immediate families. Did you make it so children adopt the gods of their parents, or how do they decide? Does it use the same logic in worldgen and at the coming of adulthood in fortress mode?

Whatever the logic, when you get 3 or 4 rungs down a family tree dwarves end up worshipping every god in the pantheon, which is a pain. Is this an intended challenge, or a bug in worship list pruning?

In world gen, the children inherit the religions of their parents as they grow up, so it starts to add up.  The new temples turned this into a balance issue, which we haven't handled yet.  In dwarf mode, as an early convenience, religion is just passed from the mother to the baby at birth, so the problem isn't compounded, but it is also a sillier system.
:

I've had a look at  my fortress' single parent pair's children, and they all worshiped the deity of their mother (as Toady said), but in addition to that, most of them had one additional deity, which differed between the children. All of the additional deities were from the dwarven pantheon, though. Thus, if no pruning takes place, the females will continue to rack up more and more deities over the generations, so it seems the problem is actually compounded (but I'm very far from getting a second generation of children), and I guess few fortresses or worlds last long enough for multi generation accumulation to be much of a problem.

It was more of a problem when dwarves spent a higher percentage of their time worshipping. Toady really turned that down in 42.04; but in 42.03(?) I had some dwarves with 5 deities apiece who I couldn't get to do any productive work because they were constantly interrupted by worship needs.
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Random_Dragon

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #3404 on: February 02, 2016, 03:10:16 pm »

From what people used to say back in the day, you would only be able to butcher sentient corpses if starving, but you could eat the meat if it was available at any time. However, I once had a character get to starving, and then wait a whole 'nother day, sitting around the corpse of a sentient creature, unable to butcher it. So I'm not very sure about that being able to butcher them if starving thing, however I know that regardless of hunger you could eat the meat of a sentient if it was available. So now it's the reverse and you can butcher them under all circumstances, but can't eat them under any circumstances.

Most peculiar. But yeah, I miss being able to hand-make +troll leather loincloths+ after clearing out a dark pit. X3
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