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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1027093 times)

TheFlame52

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4530 on: June 28, 2016, 08:18:33 pm »

Will we be able to play as said intelligent artifacts? Will we at least be able to talk to them?

DG

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4531 on: June 29, 2016, 12:34:55 am »

So much cool stuff, but:

Quote
  • Ability to send a squad off the map to fetch a stolen artifact

That sounds like the first step to something huge.
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4532 on: June 29, 2016, 01:50:59 am »

That's what I thought too.

It seems that, in the development page, you want to give a very important role to artifact(s) in the next version(s). For now, artifacts are numerous in Fortress mode, meaning that, if other fortresses and cities produce as many artifacts as us, there will be a LOT of artifacts all over the world. Does this mean less moods and artifacts in the future or is this intended ?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 02:00:40 am by Inarius »
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Thundercraft

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4533 on: June 29, 2016, 02:48:20 am »

...meaning that, if other fortresses and cities produce as many artifacts as us, there will be a LOT of artifacts all over the world. Does this mean less moods and artifacts in the future or is this intended ?

I suspect artifacts are meant to be somewhat common. However, I'd imagine that when artifacts get further developed to where intelligent artifacts exist and some have amazing magical or supernatural properties, that those kinds would be uncommon. At least, I would hope that most artifacts would be mediocre or rather boring. Though, wasn't there talk of some myth adjustment to control how common fantastical and supernatural stuff is?

Whatever the case, I hope moods do not become rare. They can be Fun (or just fun).
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Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4534 on: June 29, 2016, 03:33:04 am »

Perhaps there will be different level of artifacts. On the one hand I agree with you, artifacts and moods ARE fun, but on the other hand, imagining that, sometimes you will produce THE artifact, one every XX years, which will change everything, and make you a target of thousands of creatures and thieves...

I imagine that attraction for armies and thieves will be proportionnal to the value of the artifact, and not to the power or sophistication of it...(meaning that your bland adamantine sword with wooden decoration will be less attractive than the golden jeweled powerless chest...)
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4535 on: June 29, 2016, 05:25:37 am »

Quote from: Updated development page
  • Hostility settings: No death or violence to regular settings to bleak and horrifying

What would "bleak and horrifying" entail? Would this include some of the things that have traditionally been avoided in Dwarf Fortress for various reasons, such as sex and (lack of) consent and whatnot? (There were, I think, some other similar things that I don't remember off the top of my head.)

Although such things can indeed evoke strong emotions, and not always positive, they also can be important components of the more bleak types of stories, sometimes; and Dwarf Fortress does of course aim to be a generator of many different kinds of stories. I understand many people do not want these sorts of things in their worlds/play, but that's alright so long as it's a setting (with probably the default set to the regular settings as we know them now or some such), right? Perhaps?

(Actually now that I read it again it says "hostility settings", so perhaps this really is just about the level of violence, and not other things about how friendly versus horrible things get. In that case, my question stands but without the reference to the dev page.)

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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4536 on: June 29, 2016, 06:12:13 am »

Will we be able to put quests to retrieve stolen artifacts on our fortresses? So instead of risking our dwarves in the mission, outsiders would do it.
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Thundercraft

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4537 on: June 29, 2016, 07:08:11 am »

Will we be able to put quests to retrieve stolen artifacts on our fortresses? So instead of risking our dwarves in the mission, outsiders would do it.

I honestly like this idea. However, I see a potential problem: To hire mercenaries or offer a reward for its return, wouldn't the reward need to be about equal to the value of the artifact. Depending on the artifact, that could be really big money.

I mean, if the reward was only a fraction of the artifact's value, then it seems likely that one of two scenarios would happen:
(1) Nobody takes up the offer as the reward does not justify the risks. You'd likely need a small army to retrieve it from the kobolds or goblins. Unless the mercs are really, really good at sneaking in, that is.
(2) Mercs come to take the job. But, secretly, they only came to learn who stole it and where it went. (And, perhaps, to demand partial payment up front.) They go and retrieve it. However, rather than return it to the dwarves, they sell it to a human merchant or noble or something because they would pay handsomely for it. That, or they might just keep it for themselves, such as if it was an artifact weapon.

Then again, perhaps gaining a positive reputation with the dwarves could be considered part of the reward? That, and being able to tell stories about it, have your names engraved in dwarven halls and linked in legends to the artifact itself. Heck, such might be worth giving them full dwarven citizenship.

Also, deceiving the dwarves in taking the job but then selling it to the highest bidder should have consequences. Maybe they'd hire more mercs to kill the deceitful mercs who sold it instead of fulfilling the job? Maybe those mercs would find themselves enemies of your entire dwarf civ?

Or, maybe players should check the reputation of would-be job takers before giving them the quest? Maybe giving the quest to other dwarves would make it less likely that they would sell it or keep it?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 07:28:00 am by Thundercraft »
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4538 on: June 29, 2016, 07:29:25 am »

I honestly like this idea. However, I see a potential problem: To hire mercenaries or offer a reward for its return, wouldn't the reward need to be about equal to the value of the artifact. Depending on the artifact, that could be really big money.

I mean, if the reward was only a fraction of the artifact's value, then it seems likely that one of two scenarios would happen:
(1) Nobody takes up the offer as the reward does not justify the risks. You'd likely need a small army to retrieve it from the kobolds or goblins. Unless the mercs are really, really good at sneaking in, that is.
(2) Mercs come to take the job. But, secretly, they only came to learn who stole it and where it went. (And, perhaps, to demand partial payment up front.) They go and retrieve it. However, rather than return it to the dwarves, they sell it to a human merchant or noble or something because they would pay handsomely for it. That, or they might just keep it for themselves, such as if it was an artifact weapon.

Then again, perhaps gaining a positive reputation with the dwarves could be considered part of the reward? That, and being able to tell stories about it, have your names engraved in dwarven halls and linked in legends to the artifact itself. Heck, such might be worth giving them full dwarven citizenship.

Also, deceiving the dwarves in taking the job but then selling it to the highest bidder should have consequences. Maybe they'd hire more mercs to kill the deceitful mercs who sold it instead of fulfilling the job? Maybe those mercs would find themselves enemies of your entire dwarf civ? Or, maybe players should check the reputation of would-be job takers before giving them the quest?

Sure, but it was a problem that would occur elsewhere too, as the dev page says there will be quests for adventurers. My question is if we could offer the quests.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4539 on: June 29, 2016, 07:50:10 am »

So much cool stuff, but:

Quote
  • Ability to send a squad off the map to fetch a stolen artifact

That sounds like the first step to something huge.

There was a little talk in the modding section of the forum somewhere of stashing units inside the same space where migrants emerge from off the map as a workaround for taking a creature out of view for a interaction before 'resummoning' it without having to create a whole new creature or a very close copy.

Theoretically you could assort planar travel (or at-least bringing things into your own plane aka embark) by sorting and dividing these subspace places into their own self contained things (such as a migrant subspace/invasion subspace/caravan subspace) rather than having it crammed all into the same medium which will affect CPU from multiple events triggering at once and presumably offer some room to multithread the functions individually within those to better manage it.

So sending out your artifact retrieval guys would be a case of ordering them to enter a end-zone, get counted up and ID read before being transferred to wherever else. Just in the same way a caravan (if we got to the point of realistic caravan entities moving around) would be read before entering your tile and read leaving it to account for stock etc. (if it does manage to leave at all)
 
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Thundercraft

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4540 on: June 29, 2016, 08:18:32 am »

Sure, but it was a problem that would occur elsewhere too, as the dev page says there will be quests for adventurers. My question is if we could offer the quests.

Fair enough. It really is a good question to ask.

Though, I question whether other types of quests could have the potential problems I mentioned. Paying mercs to, say, protect visiting trade caravans for a season, slay a megabeast or other dangerous creature, or retrieve a kidnapped child probably would not involve a risk of them double-crossing you. (A child isn't worth much on the open market, unlike an artifact. And it seems unlikely that a Titan or such could bribe the mercs.)

Just saying: It seems unlikely that most quests would cost as much as retrieving an artifact - that is, with a reasonable expectation that it is likely to be fulfilled.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 08:22:06 am by Thundercraft »
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4541 on: June 29, 2016, 08:27:19 am »

Kind of overlooking the point also that they could just die before they even got to collect the item to return/doublecross.

literally anything could happen.

> Wild animal attacks - Hunters can't walk two steps without being mauled to death
> Running into armies stationed in a area
> Transforming into were-creatures and forgetting the task entirely before being struck down
> Old age
> Hailstorm of fluffy wamblers (mods, nobody expects mods)
> Running into a player fortress full of traps
> Running into a NPC fortress full of traps
> Being killed by a adventurer/other mercs hired as guards (as to mean abstractly you've retired your fort but they still enlisted mercs to retrieve it, labelling themselves potentially as non-intentional villians to the quest givers, in which your hero could hunt down and kill)
> Via poor pathfinding, falling into a pit and dying, along with the corpses of 100's of other people meeting the same fate because a road pathed over a cliff and the AI just being silly.
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4542 on: June 29, 2016, 08:34:47 am »

I love the idea that instead of sending my adventurer out of his way into the middle of nowhere to check out my old fortress (which is kind of cool, but still...), that I'll actually run into npcs who'll hire me to go and break into my old fortress and steal stuff. Win-win. The fortress' evil traps kill me because I'm a damn fine designer, or I end up with the pig-tail socks of doom because I'm a damn fine thief. :)
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4543 on: June 29, 2016, 08:46:55 am »

Will we be able to put quests to retrieve stolen artifacts on our fortresses? So instead of risking our dwarves in the mission, outsiders would do it.

I honestly like this idea. However, I see a potential problem: To hire mercenaries or offer a reward for its return, wouldn't the reward need to be about equal to the value of the artifact. Depending on the artifact, that could be really big money.

I mean, if the reward was only a fraction of the artifact's value, then it seems likely that one of two scenarios would happen:
(1) Nobody takes up the offer as the reward does not justify the risks. You'd likely need a small army to retrieve it from the kobolds or goblins. Unless the mercs are really, really good at sneaking in, that is.
(2) Mercs come to take the job. But, secretly, they only came to learn who stole it and where it went. (And, perhaps, to demand partial payment up front.) They go and retrieve it. However, rather than return it to the dwarves, they sell it to a human merchant or noble or something because they would pay handsomely for it. That, or they might just keep it for themselves, such as if it was an artifact weapon.

Then again, perhaps gaining a positive reputation with the dwarves could be considered part of the reward? That, and being able to tell stories about it, have your names engraved in dwarven halls and linked in legends to the artifact itself. Heck, such might be worth giving them full dwarven citizenship.

Also, deceiving the dwarves in taking the job but then selling it to the highest bidder should have consequences. Maybe they'd hire more mercs to kill the deceitful mercs who sold it instead of fulfilling the job? Maybe those mercs would find themselves enemies of your entire dwarf civ?

Or, maybe players should check the reputation of would-be job takers before giving them the quest? Maybe giving the quest to other dwarves would make it less likely that they would sell it or keep it?
For all that to work well we'll need the coinage based economy to make a comeback. Although it tempting to pay the adventurous heroes with a bunch of chickens. :P
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pikachu17

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4544 on: June 29, 2016, 09:46:26 am »

will eventually(way WAY back if ever, probably) invaders be able to repurpose your fort to live there, while you are still there? like for instance if your dwarves are stuck underground, the goblins could make a fort on the surface.

Humans already build keeps directly over conquered elven forest retreats.

And im sure that goblins already do also build trenches and outdoor fortifications on conquered sites too.
I meant while you're still playing fort there. do goblins build trenches ON your fort, WHILE you still live there?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 10:09:47 am by pikachu17 »
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