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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1027495 times)

lue

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2014, 06:52:07 pm »

Are there plans to add concubinage?
Masterwork mod had concubines, but cut later on Toady's request, so I think it's highly unlikely they'll ever be added.

Really? Seems weird that Toady would interfere with a mod, so [citation needed], if you could.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125672.msg4230754#msg4230754

Thanks, Putnam. It's a shame that extramarital sex is for whatever reason too controversial to exist though. (However, I don't care enough to press this issue any more than I already may have.)
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2014, 07:11:35 pm »

Calling concubinage "extramarital sex" is like calling slavery "honest work".

lue

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2014, 07:25:48 pm »

Calling concubinage "extramarital sex" is like calling slavery "honest work".

Forgive me if I'm just being ignorant here, but from what I understand about concubinage (which isn't much, I'll admit), "honest work" is disingenuous, while "extramarital sex" isn't, so I don't get the analogy.
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Uristsonsonson

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2014, 07:39:03 pm »

It might be overly literal, but I don't recall any culture that practiced it seeing it as anything wrong or abnormal. Hence, you know, allowing it to begin with.
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2014, 07:49:22 pm »

Calling concubinage "extramarital sex" is like calling slavery "honest work".

Forgive me if I'm just being ignorant here, but from what I understand about concubinage (which isn't much, I'll admit), "honest work" is disingenuous, while "extramarital sex" isn't, so I don't get the analogy.

Bearing in mind that most places which practice concubinage tend to treat women like chattel, a concubine is like a wife with fewer rights (civil, human, or otherwise.) Depending on the culture it's somewhere between "I'd marry her if I could" and "sex slave," more often on the sexual exploitation end of that spectrum.

Or to put it another way, it may be normal for a multitude of cultures, but only because it is also normal for those cultures to broadly designate large swathes of the population as inferior in various ways.

Cobbler89

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2014, 07:56:05 pm »

"Concubine" is technically ancient Greek for "slave I can have sex with" -- or, if you prefer, "replaceable wife who's also my slave" -- to grossly oversimplify things, so it's kind of doubly edgy. While technically extramarital, for the concubine it was more like being both married and disposable. Although some guys seemed to actually care about their slaves in varying degrees, and if one was really lucky she might eventually be upgraded to wife proper (cf. The Iliad, again)... but that doesn't change the fact that the basic concept was degrading in general.

And in some cases it could be worse than usual: according to Greek legend, Jason actually married Medea in her homeland of Colchis, but when they returned to Jason's home in Greece he claimed she was just a concubine -- and guess who Jason's kinsmen believed. It was particularly stupid of him considering, again according to legend, Medea was a mighty sorcerous (and he knew this because that's how she'd basically saved his neck previously!), who retaliated by poisoning Jason's second wife and their son, burning their castle to the ground and taking off on a dragon to find some other throne to weasel her way into (where she later shows up in Theseus's story trying to poison him so she can inherit his father's throne instead, but I'm getting off topic now...).

Although I do think The Iliad and the legend of Jason and Medea are pretty good examples of how it doesn't have to be about the sex for concubinage to contribute drama, but then, I'm also the guy who keeps being reminded of Homer's battle sequences whenever he reads over and over that "the copper spear strikes the goblin hammerman in the left lowered arm, tearing the muscle and tearing the fat!"

(Apologies again for dragging this off topic, though I do hope I can at least be moderately edifying/interesting while the discussion is out here... reading all that mythology has got to help me with something...)
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sal880612m

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2014, 08:08:54 pm »

Okay so while Toady is clearly against concubinage, is he in general against the idea of having a some sort of extramarital consort/mistress that could lead to things like illegitimate heirs and other such intrigues?
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2014, 08:29:59 pm »

Thanks to therahedwig, Talvieno, Footkerchief and anybody else up there that helped out!  Footkerchief handled a whole brick, so if you don't see your question below, please consult above.  I didn't address a few of the suggestion-type questions -- please handle them in suggestions (I'm caught up now!).

Quote from: MaskedMiner
In adventure mode sometimes when I start a game there is "Bandit led by (x) are harassing people on the street!" thing going on, but after killing all bandits and even after going to their leader and killing him, they are still saying that. Is there currently a way to resolve that "quest" so that people on the site stop saying they are being harassed?

I had a note to fix up the rumor, and it slipped near the end when it got complicated.  It should end up being part of this process.  There's some trickiness to getting some forms of rumors to win-out over other forms, especially when they are half-handled and so on.

Quote from: MaskedMiner
(more random demons?)

As with night creatures and the new critters and another category we haven't even started, we have a scheme more or less decided, based in most cases on the EGA colors.  No clue when we'll get there.

Quote from: HugoLuman
What happened to the [POWER] token?

I don't actually remember, since it was an early change.  If it's gone, it was probably an effect of the new stuff.  Is the issue that certain megabeasts no longer take over sites for mods?  I could revisit that.  I think the takeover code still exists.

Quote from: samanato
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: SmileyMan
Are there plans to do more with yielded opponents, such as taking them prisoner?

I'd love to march into the bandit camp that's been harassing a town, dispatch the henchmen and then drag the leader back to the lord and see him put in the dungeons while I receive my rewards.

Footkerchief linked the most relevant portion from dev -- there was also some stuff there about tying and gagging and interrogating (under the hero role oddly enough) that are relevant.  Returning a bandit for glory or bounty is one of the things we wanted to do with that role.

Quote from: SmileyMan
Will an equivalent of the old quest markers ever make a comeback, or do we have to keep track of destinations by ourselves now?

Maybe a system where certain topics in the Q screen could be 'marked' by the player, and then the relevant sites could be highlighted in the nearby sites list.

Yeah, there's a line to walk between forced quest/journal entries and the complete aimlessness we have now.  We were considering things along your lines, with a way to mark topics, either when they are said or from Q.

Quote from: CypherLH
Do you think the current conversations between NPC's can often be a bit too spammy, any plans to tone it down at all?

Is the current "rumor" system working as intended? I ask because it seems like NPC's have a tendency to not care much when you inform them of completed tasks. Not sure if the rumor system is broken or if the NPC reactions to the things are just very subtle now.

It has been toned down, he he he.  It was even worse when you could hear everything represented by a blue !.  But yeah, it's still pretty bad in crowded rooms.

The rumors aren't the problem right now as much as not being able to see your reputation levels easily, and certain of those might not be affecting all the reps they should.  A major thing is that instead of "it was inevitable", they should report any reputation effects.  I tried to put your top rep in the greeting, but it might take something as cheesy as asking "what do you think of me?" to get enough information.

Quote from: samanato
There seems to be an overabundance of wood even in savannas and deserts with cacti.  Should this be balanced, in your opinion, or is it intended to make wood an easier accessed resource? As of now, it doesn't go with the elven diplomat dialogue, since part of the challenge of a tree fell quota is not getting a hundred elven bowmen at your doorstep, and the new trees kind of nullify that.

It was supposed to be easier to get wood earlier, and then have that be balanced with the regrowth speed.  I don't know that the saplings are currently growing properly (they were at some point, but we know how that goes), but it takes a long time to get those old-growth forests you are chewing through in the beginning.  The elves should definitely be changed now.  It would be funny if they singled out specific old trees or parts of the map.

Quote from: thvaz
Toady, there is any time frame to resume work on the night creatures? Vampires and Werecreatures aren't working well in Adventurer mode, and I remember you wanted to include some more.
...
It is more like the fact that they don't try do disguise themselves, and the fact that werecreatures are useless in adventurer mode right now. The initial ideas Toady had when he started implementing them were much more interesting.

And there is my doubt about the rest of the night creatures that were cut out for the 32.01 release.

He he he, we should remember how dangerous it is for us to disappear on night creature tangents.  We certainly still want to do them, but we try to show restraint.  The vampire/werewolf problem might be higher priority, especially as broken as werewolves are.  Now that the world is bumping around, it might be worth it to try to let werewolves live in towns and see how they go.  Having a cottage suddenly go nuts might be fun, though properly we'd want to think about the counter-measures being taken or whatever allowed them to survive to that point.

Quote from: cephalo
Do entities still need to be married (committed) to produce children?

Yeah, that part is all the same.  Lovers is a hand-holdey term until further developments ensue.

Quote from: Jakob
Are there plans to fix the piles of people in forts and such this version? It tends to be an FPS killer which makes it very hard to play.

Footkerchief linked the bug on the tracker, and I fixed it today (in two and hopefully all forms -- there's lots of pop code).

Quote from: Puzzlemaker
Do migrating armies show up in fortress mode?  Is it possible to create a fortress that intercepts any armies heading towards your civilization?
...
What if you make a natural blockade, and the only way through is through your fort?  I set up a map like that, I haven't gotten around to testing it though.  (map)  There is a spot you can build that's a landbridge between the goblin and dwarf civilizations, the only way through.  Would the game just crash, or would they just magically phase through?

If I remember, they phase.  It was easier to handle the pathing/connectivity AI that way.  Ideally, you'd be fully a part of the world.  The only real problems I recall with that is the game-related one of early difficult attacks, and having the AI consider your intervening existence (they don't think much about intervening sites now because there are no battles).  Maybe people should just have to eat those attacks now.  The armies do lose time entering your fort's time warp, but that's not a huge deal if they are just crossing the space and exiting the other side.

Quote from: mnjiman
Is the following observation a intentional or unintentional change: In Fortress mode the speed in which the calendar time passes seemed to have slowed down. In addition to this, the rate at which dwarves learn their skills seemed to have increased greatly.

To make a comparison, in .34.11 I was able to make 15 bedrooms (bed and a door 2x2), a small dining room, a workshop area, a farm and be able to produce about 1k value in good before the first Liaison+Traders came in fall (from what I remember). My dwarves would be able to reach about adept-expert in certain skills.

In 40.03, I have made 50 bedrooms (bed and a door 2x2), a large dining room, fully built workshop area, a fully connected kitchen area, farm and proper ramp accesses, and was able to make 5.5k in good for trades. My dwarves have already reached Master and High Master in certain area's.

I do agree that this change was in the right direction, however I do feel that I am progressing too quickly now.

Footkerchief linked the bug report -- it's mostly the speed split and larger AI rewrite, I think, and every job is possibly affected, possibly 10x where I didn't catch the wait time.  Where things have gotten out of whack, we need to nudge them back, and it could be a lengthy process.  There's a generic "job" move that functions as a throttle for job completion, but there are places that avoid that (I think liaison meetings for example go at warp speed now -- not that people seem to mind that).

Quote from: Mephansteras
On a related question about plants: Are there plans to go through and give the various aboveground plants more realistic seasons and growth durations, as well as reasonable harvest seasons for things like fruit?

Right now they're all pretty much set for any season with short growth durations that allow you to get a crop every season (or more), while the underground plants all have seasons, which doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, I'd like to have the seasons be correct, where seasons even exist, and the biomes are also too non-specific in most cases.  Right now it's a combination of research/data-entry time combined with not having farming finalized and so worrying about wasting mine (or anybody's) time entering info.  I haven't gotten close enough to tackling farming think about how the plant issue is going to be handled.

Okay so while Toady is clearly against concubinage, is he in general against the idea of having a some sort of extramarital consort/mistress that could lead to things like illegitimate heirs and other such intrigues?

It was a while ago, but I really just set the child board up on the condition that none of the really explicit material be in there (I originally had the body part mods in mind).  Meph decided what was in and out on his own, but I can't say I disagree (I don't have a definite opinion on this specific case, since I don't know the implementation, but I would have agreed with removing anything like sexual slavery).  I'm not against adding extramarital stuff or other variety/antics/etc.  If, when break-ups and so on are added to the relationship code, DF ends up like a reality show, that could be for the best.
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Cobbler89

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2014, 08:54:57 pm »

If I haven't said so already (what the heck, even if I have), thanks!
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lue

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2014, 09:21:28 pm »

Thanks for the answers, Toady!

It seemed like my misunderstanding was thinking that concubinage was more consensual that it appears to be. Shows you what you get for thinking in the abstract sometimes :) (my working definition was just "institutionalized affairs for the powerful", without any of the typical context).

Just because it's been on my mind for the past day or so now: How did you decide upon CP-437 as the encoding of choice for the game? And do you still think it's a decent choice? (OK, I admit, maaaybe I just want to see a bunch of U+1F3F0 EUROPEAN CASTLE icons on the world map some day, and come across some U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW in the snowier hamlets... :P )
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Scruiser

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2014, 09:35:34 pm »

PTW
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King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2014, 09:39:14 pm »

Lovers is a hand-holdey term until further developments ensue.
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Alev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2014, 09:44:30 pm »

Thanks, Toady. There isn't a devlog link yet, though.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2014, 09:45:02 pm »

Lovers is a hand-holdey term until further developments ensue.
There's a joke to be made here, you know it. I don't know what the joke is, but it needs to be made.

I was just gonna say "As it ever was."
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samanato

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2014, 09:59:34 pm »

Thanks for the answers. A few more questions for this thread:
  • How do you plan to rework the tree-cap diplomacy of the elves? Singling out one particular tree and not telling you would be pretty !!FUN!!ny (and a little faeish, which I've always pictured elves as being), but would go into luck-based mission territory imo.  Or is it the whole civ and the culture, that are changing?
  • Are the expanded list of goals planned to be used in more secrets? (they don't seem to work now)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 10:47:21 pm by samanato »
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