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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1654204 times)

samanato

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #240 on: July 31, 2014, 04:51:10 pm »

How extensive will be the changes required to fix invasions at the moment, which appear to be broken?  It appears to have something to do with neighbours not pathing correctly, though there may well be other reasons. Has the "army will camp forever" message something to do with goblin armies not moving?

I've posted a bug report about this; I'm not sure, if the visibly bugged neighbours list in the embark screen is connected to this (neighbours can literally disappear at the moment of embark seemingly) but invasions are definitely missing from my experience and many others.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #241 on: July 31, 2014, 05:28:01 pm »

How extensive will be the changes required to fix invasions at the moment, which appear to be broken?  It appears to have something to do with neighbours not pathing correctly, though there may well be other reasons. Has the "army will camp forever" message something to do with goblin armies not moving?

I've posted a bug report about this; I'm not sure, if the visibly bugged neighbours list in the embark screen is connected to this (neighbours can literally disappear at the moment of embark seemingly) but invasions are definitely missing from my experience and many others.

Don't forget to link the report!
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #242 on: July 31, 2014, 05:46:19 pm »

Thanks to Talvieno, Darkweave, Footkerchief, Knight Otu, Putnam, Witty, therahedwig, Mopsy, thvaz, Untelligent, Dirst, CLA and anybody I missed for helping out with the questions this time.  I removed a few specific suggestion/timing and specific bug reports -- it's difficult to say at this point exactly when we are going to get to which bugs, but we'll keep working on them, and it is best to keep suggestions in their threads.  Timing questions almost always don't have a satisfactory answer.

Quote from: lue
How did you decide upon CP-437 as the encoding of choice for the game? And do you still think it's a decent choice?

It is the one we grew up with on our DOS computers.  We already had a bunch of the codes memorized and knew how they looked so it was easy to work with.  Working without graphics has been good for us since things have been quick to add, relatively speaking (compared to Armok 1, say), but there's certainly the problem with too many characters overlapping now.

Quote from: samanato
How do you plan to rework the tree-cap diplomacy of the elves? Singling out one particular tree and not telling you would be pretty !!FUN!!ny (and a little faeish, which I've always pictured elves as being), but would go into luck-based mission territory imo.  Or is it the whole civ and the culture, that are changing?

I don't have more to add to the original question and answer.  I'd assume the elves would tell you the name of the tree and exactly where it is and kind of rub your nose in it.

Quote from: Cobbler89
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Quote from: nomoetoe
will a race (like goblins for example) be utterly terrified of you if you were to kill hundreds/thousands of them? and would they be scared of a weapon used to kill many of there kind?

That doesn't happen specifically along racial lines, but it probably should.  It can effectively happen sometimes based on entity rep (which can be somewhat racial), though the effect occurs more in terms of having people pass on ambushing or harassing you than general terror.  Lots left to do!

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Quote from: samanato
Would embarking in, say, the same joyous forest that an elven civ has settled in, eventually be considered a breach of territorial claims and trigger hostility, and therefore a Very Bad Idea? What if the settlement is fairly far from the nearest forest retreat, hamlet etc.? How would territories and boundaries of civs in general work, while balancing out the gameplay?
Quote from: Dirst
When civilizations get recognizable borders, how will we recognize them?  Will we be prevented from embarking in anyone else's territory, or at least anyone we're not at war with?

It's still hard to say how it's going to turn out, or if it should always be clear-cut in terms of territory.  As far as I can tell, the historical precedents are all over the place.  I don't think it'll be too difficult to be clear about territorial claims on embark and that kind of thing, when it matters, but I don't have specific plans for how it'll be.  We still don't have a well-defined notion of property/ownership/etc. at all, for anything.

Quote from: Talvieno
Are refuse stockpiles supposed to terrify certain dwarves?

Are they being terrified by dead dwarf bodies?  That's supposed to be scary, but there was that thing I mentioned back when I was talking about quests, where things like teeth would scare them under certain circumstances.  I think there's probably a little too much flipping out as opposed to just negative thoughts, and that'll change when I do that thought rewrite I need to finish before job priorities.

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Quote from: MaskedMiner
In one of older version there were those unnamed whatever underground animal men civilizations, what is the plan for those? Is every type of animal men going to have their own tribal civilization or were those 7 underground "civilizations" placeholders for something else?

The underground ones were always a bit more civilized equipment-wise, but I don't know that the aboveground ones are going to remain in their animal population state.  We'll probably be in better shape once we have things like better-defined nomadic human pops.

Quote from: Vattic
Are we going to see plant genetics and cultivar breeding in future?

I tried to take them all out from the list we have, so there'd be room for that to go its own way if we ever get there.

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Quote from: Untelligent
Can you be at war with a civilization from one race and still get merchants from a different civilization of that race now?

I'm remembering that I didn't fiddle with the "nearby" tag yet?  If I remember, the concern was that you couldn't build a relationship with a trader (i.e. have year-to-year agreements work at all) if it sent different ones every time.  We'll probably need the economy/caravan rewrite before it would be good to change it.

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STAY_ALIVE, MAINTAIN_ENTITY_STATUS, START_A_FAMILY, RULE_THE_WORLD, CREATE_A_GREAT_WORK_OF_ART, CRAFT_A_MASTERWORK, BRING_PEACE_TO_THE_WORLD, BECOME_A_LEGENDARY_WARRIOR, MASTER_A_SKILL, FALL_IN_LOVE, SEE_THE_GREAT_NATURAL_SITES.
Were these tokens only added to go with the new personality update or do they also indicate near term plans for expansion to secret motivations?
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What's the difference between "STAY_ALIVE" and "IMMORTALITY"?

I wanted to make sure the systems were under the same umbrella moving forward, but I don't have specific near-term goals for them.  STAY_ALIVE was just a way to get people to eat, when I tried to have motivations for each choosable action...  I'm not sure if I want to stick what that system or not.  Theoretically, I want to be able to attack core motivations so that certain action trees can naturally collapse so stuff is more reactive without having to respect individual causes, but overall it's also clumsy.  It'll probably see more use/decisions when I handle the dwarf thoughts before job priorities, since that'll lead us to longer-term moods and different emotions.

Quote from: cephalo
Are there major differences between the historical resolution that happens in world-gen and the historical resolution that happens in the calendar between games? If so, what are the biggest differences?

There are many, many differences.  The calendar doesn't have army battles, new necro towers with grave-robbing from battlefields, megabeast attacks, production, trade, thieves, snatching etc. etc. etc.  It's just not done yet.

Quote from: Quietust
Version 0.40 added GET_ITEM_DATA and ITEM_REACTION_PRODUCT so reactions can create different types of items depending on what material they're given. In previous versions, you could use GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:reagent:NONE to directly copy the material from a reagent (instead of specifying a MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT), but using GET_ITEM_DATA:reagent:NONE appears to simply not produce an item - is this something that's supposed to work, or something that you weren't expecting anybody to do?

To copy an item?  I didn't implement that, due to corpsey concerns or just an oversight (don't recall).  I can throw something in if people aren't expecting corpses/body components...  I'm not sure how that would/should work, especially given the diversity of the inputs.  I don't remember if copy even works on corpses (in terms of moving wounds and all the other data).  A corpse cloning reaction might be beyond me for now.

Quote from: Elone
Do the AI-controlled climbing creatures consider the wall/cliff/whatever height for their increased climbing cost?

Nope.  Any non-adjacent or persistent-from-move-to-move considerations are more expensive or difficult to set up, and I haven't done anything with that yet.

Quote from: thvaz
The new stealth mechanics are integrated in some way in fortress mode?

Everything except the actual vision arcs (so no facing, but all those things you see when you press 'S' in adv mode are in).  It is the reason critters sneaking into the fort are generally much easier to spot...  I'm not sure if the kobolds and snatchers are ever successful now.  Hopefully sometimes.  They need to be taught to crawl and move across open areas quickly, since that helps a lot.

Quote from: darkflagrance
are these plants a priority to be fixed as part of the tree/plant improvements that are part of this version, and should we expect them to be fully implemented as part of the current wave of bugfixing? Could we players effectively "fix" them ourselves with functions already extant in the game? Or are they unfinished because you want to add additional tags/mechanisms that will use these placeholder plants?

The harvesting stuff I haven't done should make them more reasonable.  The dwarves aren't meant to just tear up grape vines and so on.  They should pick fruit in season, and I'm hoping to get there in this cycle.

Quote from: therahedwig
What does it really mean when they say "It was inevitable"?

It means pretty much that I haven't gotten around to giving them something better to say, even if there was a reputation change etc., due to time constraints as much as anything.  Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.

Quote from: Knight Otu
What determines whether a civ will use words from other languages to name their gods? It doesn't seem to be random chance - apparently, dwarves will do so more readily than other civs.

Just looking at the code, it seems to be feeding in the entity's language index, so there shouldn't be other languages.  Probably just a bug, unless I'm misunderstanding.  The choice of words is determined by the spheres, and that can go away from the preferred entity words, but they should all be in the dwarf language.

Quote from: thvaz
What is the deal with underground animal men turning into vampires? There a lot of them running around, killing people at towns, and it looks like they don't mind to hide their identities as a vampire. In legends I saw one that got cursed by a god by profaning a temple, this is intended?

Knight Otu mentioned the outcast groups -- and that's where they are coming from.  Occasionally the underground people move into sewers and so on, and their historical leader is subject to the bad decision-making that plagues other historical city dwellers (like profaning temples).  Their new rampaging behavior is all buggy though.  The underground is stuffed with people that don't like each other, and they probably are buggy within their own groups as well, and it leads to an eruption of critters I think.

Quote from: Scruiser
What kind of and in what format do you find suggestions most helpful?
I.e. of the following elements which is more useful: A quick idea, a detailed summary, hypothetical tags and RAWs for an idea, detailed implementations, back and forth discussion over a contentious idea, research about historical background, free-form brainstorming, etc.

I think I've gotten something out of suggestions in any of those formats.  I prefer suggestions with less fighting, but that's a forum guidelines thing (and I'll generally skip posts in which somebody is being rude).  There's usually not much of a point in going into code implementations or coding time estimates, though there will be exceptions to that as with anything.

Quote from: CaptainArchmage
Now that the population cap has been fixed, does this mean we will still get migrants when the units list gets exceptionally large? In at least 0.34.11, when the units list totalled over 1,000 units (dead or alive, not just citizens) the number of migrants started to drop significantly.

As Quietust brought up, that's an unrelated old intentional thing I haven't dealt with yet.  It's sometimes difficult to just cull dead units, since so many little bits and references can depend on them, but just shutting down the unit list is silly as well.

Quote from: samanato
How extensive will be the changes required to fix invasions at the moment, which appear to be broken?  It appears to have something to do with neighbours not pathing correctly, though there may well be other reasons. Has the "army will camp forever" message something to do with goblin armies not moving?

I've posted a bug report about this; I'm not sure, if the visibly bugged neighbours list in the embark screen is connected to this (neighbours can literally disappear at the moment of embark seemingly) but invasions are definitely missing from my experience and many others.

This is the first time I've heard about it, and I have no idea why it is happening.  I've seen plenty of invasions, but long-term forts aren't a common thing for me to test for time reasons.  I don't think the camp message has anything to do with it, since that seems very common, and it wouldn't change or be changed by the neighbor status.  I'll just have to check out saves and see what is going on.  Losing neighbor status would be trouble for various reasons, assuming they aren't being conquered etc.
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Chevaleresse

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #243 on: July 31, 2014, 05:57:34 pm »

Probably the wrong spot for this, but I've seen complaints about how much of a FPS hit .40 is due to the calendar/worldgen thing. What if worldgen was run at a certain point every year? (Say, just before the liason is triggered?)
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Scruiser

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #244 on: July 31, 2014, 06:02:54 pm »

Probably the wrong spot for this, but I've seen complaints about how much of a FPS hit .40 is due to the calendar/worldgen thing. What if worldgen was run at a certain point every year? (Say, just before the liason is triggered?)
Suggestions forum if you want to talk about any specific details (I'll see you over there if you want to talk ;D).  If it really is just a question about the FPS of world-gen, you probably want to reword it and not ask for a specific idea (the "worldgen was run at a certain point every year"). 
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lue

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #245 on: July 31, 2014, 06:08:40 pm »

Thanks for the answers, Toady!

Probably the wrong spot for this, but I've seen complaints about how much of a FPS hit .40 is due to the calendar/worldgen thing. What if worldgen was run at a certain point every year? (Say, just before the liason is triggered?)

The 0.40.05 release saw optimizations to the calendar1, and I don't see as severe slowdowns due to the calendar anymore. At least for me, any hit to the FPS has now been lessened greatly.

1 For me, I'm now able to go through the two weeks in adventure mode on the largest sized world in basic gen within a very reasonable timeframe. In 0.40.01, trying the same slowed my computer to a crawl and I think the kernel even stepped in and killed some processes because of it.
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therahedwig

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #246 on: July 31, 2014, 06:32:07 pm »

Quote
It means pretty much that I haven't gotten around to giving them something better to say, even if there was a reputation change etc., due to time constraints as much as anything.  Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.

Thank you, this answer made me burst out in laughter.
I'm now imagining all "it was inevitable" being said with an expression of being slightly at loss for words:

Adventurer: I slayed the mighty dragon!
Lady: ...Whu... It was... inevitable?
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Vattic

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #247 on: July 31, 2014, 07:32:01 pm »

Thanks Toady.
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #248 on: July 31, 2014, 07:40:17 pm »

Quote
It means pretty much that I haven't gotten around to giving them something better to say, even if there was a reputation change etc., due to time constraints as much as anything.  Certain conversation replies default to boring things, and it was inevitable is the bottom of the bucket.

Thank you, this answer made me burst out in laughter.
I'm now imagining all "it was inevitable" being said with an expression of being slightly at loss for words:

Adventurer: I slayed the mighty dragon!
Lady: ...Whu... It was... inevitable?

I was picturing it as more DF's equivalent of "Yeah, Whatever."

Adventurer: I slayed the mighty dragon!
Lady: It was inevitable. What, you want a medal or something?

King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #249 on: July 31, 2014, 08:22:03 pm »

Seems that DF denizens are all fatalists! Their cruel lives determined long before they are born. I'm gonna go watch reruns of Hans Beinholtz on the Colbert Report to property get in the mood for playing DF.

Cobbler89

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #250 on: July 31, 2014, 10:01:01 pm »

Thanks, Toady!

Also, it is fantastic hearing about the bugfixes.

Long live the cause!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:05:34 pm by Cobbler89 »
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hermes

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #251 on: August 01, 2014, 12:06:07 am »

Quote from: Trophy Log
Reactions will also trim away pieces of bodies properly. All jobs that affect body components (anything that uses bone, for example) will now carve away pieces of the body component, which'll leave a "partially butchered" wound type on the limbs etc. that were used in jobs if the skeleton is animated. Leather from skins is still not computed according to size, though -- that's a slightly more difficult problem since they use a custom product tag for tanning.

Woah woah woah... does this mean scalping is now possible?  Trophy taking?
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Alev

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #252 on: August 01, 2014, 01:28:39 am »

Thanks muchly, Great Toad!
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thvaz

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #253 on: August 01, 2014, 02:18:03 am »

Thanks Toady.

Cool about the stealth. We may want to clean the area in front of the fortress then. If it is difficult for them to enter, maybe they should restrict themselves to victims outside the fortress. Some dwarves who like the outdoors should go out sometimes while "On Break" to "help" their abductions/thefts.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #254 on: August 01, 2014, 05:55:17 am »

Thanks, Toady!

Quote from: Knight Otu
What determines whether a civ will use words from other languages to name their gods? It doesn't seem to be random chance - apparently, dwarves will do so more readily than other civs.

Just looking at the code, it seems to be feeding in the entity's language index, so there shouldn't be other languages.  Probably just a bug, unless I'm misunderstanding.  The choice of words is determined by the spheres, and that can go away from the preferred entity words, but they should all be in the dwarf language.
I've cooked up a save for a bug report I'll post later today, but I think I've found a similarity between the divinities - the divinities in question are the improper-named ones (The Strong Call, the Bewilderment of Cats).
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