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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 1839937 times)

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #990 on: December 24, 2014, 10:13:18 am »

0008639: [Dwarf Mode -- Jobs, Designations] Dwarves Channel Tile They're Standing On (Toady One) - resolved.

Quote from: 12/23/2014 Toady One devlog
Let's see... there was a farming bug, where having multiple farmers on the same field caused issues. I also stopped the dwarves from deciding it's a good idea to channel their own square.

Awesome, thanks Toady One! :D

Would it still be possible to force them to channel under their own square if they absolutely have to? Like for example they get themselves stuck on a ledge and they refuse to climb out? I (and others) have used that bugged behavior to dig vertical shafts, however, the ramp designation should still work for that. Edit: Apparently someone tried to do vertical shafts and found that they couldn't, they've posted a bug report on it. There are workarounds that can be done, so it's not a massive issue.

Have you checked about dwarves channeling under each other? I swear that this happens sometimes since they'll also deconstruct under each other and also stand on the tile being deconstructed. Though with the dwarves not channeling under themselves anymore, we'll just have to see if they still channel under each other.

idea while typing: Oh hey, I don't know if they already do, but with the climbing, maybe also enable them to channel or ramp out awkward spots by climbing next to it or above/below it and doing the work from there? Just an idea.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 11:19:41 am by smjjames »
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #991 on: December 24, 2014, 10:25:42 am »

Quote from: 12/23/2014 Toady One devlog
I also stopped the dwarves from deciding it's a good idea to channel their own square.
Wait what? 85% of the fun on DF came from that behavior! Then have a good day sir! I won't play anymore!  :P

Keep the good work Toady!
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #992 on: December 24, 2014, 10:30:26 am »

Quote from: 12/23/2014 Toady One devlog
I also stopped the dwarves from deciding it's a good idea to channel their own square.
Wait what? 85% of the fun on DF came from that behavior! Then have a good day sir! I won't play anymore!  :P

Keep the good work Toady!

Sure it's fun once in a while, but when you're trying to do a large channeling project or a large designation, it just gets annoying and in the way.

Up next though, can we please have them use more common sense while deconstructing stuff? Like trying not to stand on the tile that is being deconstructed? It's annoying when they keep hurting themselves by standing on the scaffold that is being deconstructed, and woe is the dwarf standing on a scaffolding hanging many z levels in the air.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 10:33:03 am by smjjames »
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #993 on: December 24, 2014, 01:25:20 pm »

For the time being the priority system for designations works wonders to prevent that kind of stuff. And you can do it all at once provided the whole floor/stair/wall is not bigger than 7 tiles in any direction, in such case you will need to order the deconstruction in at least two batches, once after the other is done. Don't know if I'm explaining my self right.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #994 on: December 24, 2014, 04:45:09 pm »

It's mainly the removing up/down stair scaffolding that I'm being annoyed at. Even if you designate them in alternates, they can still be stupid and stand on the up/down stairs that they are removing.
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teh sam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #995 on: December 24, 2014, 06:49:53 pm »

Sometimes you will credit fixes to others, Quietust comes to mind.  Do these other people have access to the code, or do they suggest bug fixes by examining the kind of memory items that dfhack and other programs access?

Thanks Toady!  This new dev plan has me really pumped!
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Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #996 on: December 24, 2014, 07:09:48 pm »

They do not have access to the code, at least in the way you're probably thinking.

smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #997 on: December 24, 2014, 08:30:53 pm »

Sometimes you will credit fixes to others, Quietust comes to mind.  Do these other people have access to the code, or do they suggest bug fixes by examining the kind of memory items that dfhack and other programs access?

Thanks Toady!  This new dev plan has me really pumped!

While those guys are knowledgeable in coding, they don't have access to the code in the way you think. The fixes are largely from binaries in DFhack that fix some bugs (the '90% of fort mode creatures don't grow to adult size' bug for example).

Some of the fixes he credits are typos for example.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 08:34:54 pm by smjjames »
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Quietust

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #998 on: December 25, 2014, 10:15:43 pm »

Sometimes you will credit fixes to others, Quietust comes to mind.  Do these other people have access to the code, or do they suggest bug fixes by examining the kind of memory items that dfhack and other programs access?

Thanks Toady!  This new dev plan has me really pumped!

While those guys are knowledgeable in coding, they don't have access to the code in the way you think. The fixes are largely from binaries in DFhack that fix some bugs (the '90% of fort mode creatures don't grow to adult size' bug for example).
Most of the time, when a bugfix is credited to me, it's because I took the time to disassemble and analyze parts of the game's code (generally the specific parts that were known to be broken), figure out why it wasn't working, and produce a binary patch to make it work correctly.

Some of them were found by people playing recent versions of the game, while some have been lurking in the code for over 7 years (until I stumbled across them during my analysis of version 0.23.130.23a).

For example, the bugfix for #7747 looked like this to me:
Code: [Select]
.text:00474940                 mov     esi, offset _ui
.text:00474945                 call    sub_455CE0
.text:0047494A                 test    al, al
.text:0047494C                 jz      short loc_474962
.text:0047494E                 cmp     bl, 3
.text:00474951                 jge     short loc_47495A
.text:00474953                 cmp     [esp+ebp+14h+var_4+1], 0
.text:00474958                 jnz     short loc_474962

->

.text:00474940                 mov     esi, offset _ui
.text:00474945                 call    sub_455CE0
.text:0047494A                 test    al, al
.text:0047494C                 jz      short loc_474962
.text:0047494E                 inc     ebp
.text:0047494F                 and     ebp, 3
.text:00474952                 nop
.text:00474953                 cmp     [esp+ebp+14h+var_4], 0
.text:00474958                 jnz     short loc_474962
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It's amazing how dwarves can make a stack of bones completely waterproof and magmaproof.
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #999 on: December 26, 2014, 06:54:07 am »

You are a saint. Thanks for your efforts!
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1000 on: December 26, 2014, 10:46:10 pm »

Sometimes you will credit fixes to others, Quietust comes to mind.  Do these other people have access to the code, or do they suggest bug fixes by examining the kind of memory items that dfhack and other programs access?

Thanks Toady!  This new dev plan has me really pumped!

While those guys are knowledgeable in coding, they don't have access to the code in the way you think. The fixes are largely from binaries in DFhack that fix some bugs (the '90% of fort mode creatures don't grow to adult size' bug for example).
...

Yes, I just troubleshoot using DFHack and WinDbg on the same DF download that everyone else has.

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1001 on: December 28, 2014, 10:36:05 pm »

Thanks to Putnam, Footkerchief, lethosor, mifki, Knight Otu, Dirst, smjjames, Heph, Rockphed, Quietust and anybody that I missed for helping to answer questions!  I left out a few that were answered by the job priority release as well as some suggestion stuff.

Quote from: Dirst
Do you envision a task system where more than one Dwarf can be assigned to work together on the same job?

I'm not really sure how things like the apprentice system are going to work, or things like teaching job-related skills.  It would be cool to have certain larger scale jobs that can involve several skilled dwarves as well, but I haven't thought about it at all.

Quote from: k33n
What curly bracket style do you use in c++?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No idea why.  It has been 23 years now I think, though I don't remember when it solidified, and I didn't adopt it from any one place that I remember.

Quote
Quote from: Weirdsound
You mention that because the economy is not turned on, you will not be focusing on Tavern Revenue. Will there be some watered down system where the guests hand over a fixed amount coins for you to melt/hire other travelers with? Or will the sole reward of running the tavern at this point be flavorful - getting to play the games and meet the visitors?
Quote from: crapabear
Do you think the tavern/inn release is going to end up requiring a full-scale resurrection of fortress economy? We'll be able to set the prices of drinks and rooms, but what use will we have for all the worthless coins(?) we collect from our guests?

We're still working it out, but we imagine they'll still be trading something, even if they're just pining for the economy's return when they do it.  It could be related back to hiring visitors and some other things, hopefully in such a way that it'll work out well enough as we bring the economy online.  But yeah, not the priority for this one.  Unless they are giving you chickens or service or something, we'll find some point for the coins to start.

Quote from: Vattic
Why is there a 2x2 minimum embark size limit?

I didn't want to work out whatever problems might have come from having a map smaller than the display width.  I'm still not sure what the problems might be, though if the nanofort people haven't had trouble they might not be serious.

Quote from: hermes
When adding new features/screens to the game, control wise do you have a scheme you are following that will be consistent with the future rewrite, or are the controls decided upon without an eye to the future because you know the UI rewrite is coming?

Without hope, pretty much.  I just tried to fit things on the 'd' tab this time.  I don't have enough details about the future controls to be able to do much to accommodate them.  It doesn't seem to build upon itself the same way the underlying structure generally does, though perhaps that's simply a personal failing.

Quote from: palu
What was Scamps code?

I remember there was a line with like an 'fb' on it, and then a blank line with a semicolon, and another mess.  He's only five.

Quote from: wobbly
How does the new system treat military dwarves?

The military stuff wasn't involved, since there weren't any jobs there.  Activities still exist as book-ends for jobs, more or less, priority-wise.

Quote from: Ribs
Will wall/road building jobs ever go back to having skills associatted with them (that actually influence in the quality/ speed of the job)? I mean, it does make sense to have your guys need some skill in masonry if they want to build a stone wall... it's not exactly unskilled labor like hauling.

Actually, considering that even jobs like pump operating have a skill associated with them, will hauling jobs ever get a skill?

We'll probably get back to proper masons doing wally mason things...  the way it merges with the architecture skill or whatever it ends up being is unknown, and I'm not sure which parts of the overall process of building a large stone structure use which talents and what the skills are, in the same way I don't know much about any of the professions in the game...  apparently I should have fuller's earth and tenterhooks and carding and giant meter-long cloth shears.

Quote from: wobbly
I'm curious how dynamic the starting scenarios will be. Will military outposts/taverns still be able to grow in to traditional forts?

Yeah, I probably should have been careful with the wording, since the word scenario in games brings some baggage with it.  It might be difficult for something like a prison colony's administration to change its remit to something more general, but even if everything starts stacked up in a certain way, we'd like it all to be mutable eventually.  Each fort will exist in the same framework, even if the circumstances are different, though since the changes have to be coded, they probably won't all be possible at first.

Quote from: smjjames
With taverns, is there going to be a barista (or bartender) occupation? Then again, the brewer could fill this role easily and I've occasionally seen brewers in the drinking mounds.

As a side question, will the residential areas of goblin sites ever have furniture or will they always be spartan? I imagine that the one and two tile rooms would only have a bed and maybe a chest or cabinet, while larger chambers will have more furniture.

If there's something to do, somebody's gotta do it, though I don't recall that we have an example of a named professional dwarf that isn't entity-associated (nobles, admins, soldiers) or that doesn't have a craft skill (the workshop workers), so it'll be an interesting subject to tackle, though at first it could just be a labor setting (at least until we get more structure in with the start scenario stuff, at which point the inn/tavern zone might become a better-understood sub-organization in the fort).

Furniture in adventure mode sites got caught in a bad spot with the world gen site stockpiles not really getting the proper things produced, and now for beds etc. it wants an item from one of the site piles and they often aren't there -- it causes the furniture shortages in human buildings.  With the goblin cells, I didn't even bother trying to place anything yet.  For the gobs especially, I'd like them to take on the personality of their residents, since the gobs are supposed to tolerate all manner of decorations and individual variations, but that's wishful thinking until it happens.

Quote from: FearfulJesuit
Are designation priority numbers only relative to each other, or do they get taken into account with respect to other sorts of jobs, as well? Like, it's obvious that a miner will dig out a hallway labeled "1" before he goes after one labeled "7"; but will the top-priority hallway take precedence over hauling jobs while the lowest-priority hallway won't, or something like that?

The priority-designation jobs are all above the hauling jobs, but if you enable all the jobs on one dwarf, they should respect the priorities compared to each other, even for different kinds of jobs.  I'm not sure what else would be the most useful, and we'll probably let it marinate for a while.

Quote from: Vattic
Now that you've caught up with the suggestions forum do you mean to read it more regularly again?

Knight Otu mentioned it was the plan, and so far we're doing okay.  It's weird when you get caught up, since you kind of have to dig through the churning mass in the front page, which makes note-taking a chore, so we're more getting re-caught up every few weeks to avoid that.

Quote from: Andreus
1. So I've noticed at the moment that in a lot of situations, worldgen often creates human societies which are both agglomerations of humans and a large number of members of other species such as animal men, and also tend to be ruled by a long succession of vampires, sometimes not even of human origin. Will human societies tend to stay more human in the future?

2. In relation to the above, are we going to see more granularity in how civilizations treat members of their society that aren't the primary race - second class citizens, pariahs, slaves, or exiling them completely? Will these be options in the raws? (I know we technically have slaves right now, but they have this odd tendency to not stay slaves after a couple of generations)

6. In terms of gods in general, it seems that gods are currently specific to their respective entities. Are we eventually going to see seperate cultures of the same race having overlap in their pantheons? Will we get a raws option to encourage this happening?

7. Are we eventually going to get more forms of magic, and would it be possible to have an entity position dedicated to the research and acquisition of magical power, and the education of those who have it?

1. I haven't seen animal people as parts of human societies.  Never in the shops or anything.  Are you talking about the site lists?  Those are generally 'monsters' in the sewers.

2. I don't know that the sort of critter is always going to be the main factor, but we're going to explore social status with start scenarios.

6. The localized pantheons became an odd part of the game when the gods started to actually do things.  We're going to mess around with additional setups when we do the w.g. artifact stuff.

7. I'm not sure what or when.  Clearly more will happen eventually.

Quote from: Nopenope
Have you made up your mind about what you intend to do with commented out demonic fortresses as yet?

Adding to that, do you have any plans as to make driftwood usable?

And by the way, did you eat lutefisk at Christmas?

We have some plans now, involved with the upcoming overall w.g. artifact additions.  As of now, they are still secret plans.

I think there's something in the notes about driftwood, along with being able to pull up boulders.

Lutefisk was on the 27th this time, though the main event was a toddler with his grandfather's electric toothbrush cleaning the house.  They've really improved the batteries on those things.

Quote from: smjjames
Have you checked about dwarves channeling under each other? I swear that this happens sometimes since they'll also deconstruct under each other and also stand on the tile being deconstructed. Though with the dwarves not channeling under themselves anymore, we'll just have to see if they still channel under each other.

I haven't looked at this.  I didn't remove the check for a dwarf for deconstructions, but it's possible it's broken.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 11:54:50 pm by Toady One »
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gabrek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1002 on: December 28, 2014, 11:42:12 pm »

Thank you for the replies and general awesomeness, O Toady One! <3
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lethosor

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1003 on: December 28, 2014, 11:55:30 pm »

Quote from: Vattic
Why is there a 2x2 minimum embark size limit?

I didn't want to work out whatever problems might have come from having a map smaller than the display width.  I'm still not sure what the problems might be, though if the nanofort people haven't had trouble they might not be serious.
It's possible for 2x2 embarks to be smaller than the screen width as well, which doesn't seem to be causing problems. There do seem to be problems with underground wildlife on 1x1 maps, however.
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There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game.

Vattic

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1004 on: December 29, 2014, 01:12:24 am »

Thanks again Toady.
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