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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 657997 times)

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1140 on: January 18, 2015, 05:56:47 pm »

In the middle ages, in England anyway, nobles usually had a theoretically painless death by beheading, though it was often botched in practice as the axeman failed to strike cleanly. Commoners faced the far more horrible methods of hanging, burning for heresy, and drawing, hanging and quartering for treason. Many people about to be burned were first strangled to death to spare them the torture of the flames. The concept of a humane execution certainly existed in 1400, but it was only often applied to the nobility.

Hammering is gruesome, but since the first blow of a hammer to the head should be instant death, it is not really torturous. Dwarves could sacrifice goblins to Armok by hammering, though I think casting into magma would be more appropriate in that case. Gods should vary in their demand for sacrifices, with some wanting none, others wanting animals and the bloodiest wanting prisoners. Dwarves could then embark on Aztec-style "flower wars" to capture prisoners for sacrifice.

Dwarven ethics never stopped horrors like restraining live goblins and slowly shooting them to death with wooden bolts, so I doubt they would get in the way of sacrifices.
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1141 on: January 19, 2015, 12:26:11 am »

There was also the concept of making executions as torturous as humanly possible.

Crucifixion is just about the perfect execution in terms of prolonged death. With those who die of it tending to die of suffication. I could go into the science involved but suffice it to say... it was pretty bad.

Quote
Hammering is gruesome, but since the first blow of a hammer to the head should be instant death, it is not really torturous

Assuming that the goal is to strike the head.

Though to be fair if Hammering was a REAL execution method it is likely favored for being a flexible system.

Someone sentenced to two hammerings? Well you could hit their head and pretty much guarantee their death...

Or you could crush their legs... or their hands... intentionally and spare them at a high cost... One could also give people who had TONS of hammerings basically a torturous excruciating death... or just one to their head to kill them instantly.

As well surviving hammering as a justification for allowing you to live is also something that likely would be built right into the system... a trial by fire sort of deal.

It could be as cruel or as kind as the dwarves need it to be... and frankly I don't believe Dwarves are super humane... They just dislike concepts they believe are "underhanded" or "Needlessly cruel". The idea of fair play is bred into them.
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Ancalagon_TB

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1142 on: January 19, 2015, 12:37:45 am »

Being Broken at the wheel may be the closest  historical equivalent to a cruel hammering :/
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1143 on: January 19, 2015, 03:45:15 am »

Being Broken at the wheel may be the closest  historical equivalent to a cruel hammering :/

Well that and... Shattering people's knees with a blunt instrument... was also something that was done.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1144 on: January 19, 2015, 05:41:44 am »

Knee capping is still done and was practiced by the IRA during the Irish Troubles of the late 1900s, along with any number of criminal gangs around the world today.

How does dwarven hammering work? I never use the hammerer, since I prefer to execute tantrum risks and useless nobles by magma, but it seems a more protracted procedure than I thought. I thought that the hammerer just smashed the victim on the head until it exploded into gore, usually only once if physics make any sense.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 05:43:48 am by Urist Tilaturist »
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

For old times' sake.

Inarius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1145 on: January 19, 2015, 07:44:48 am »

You are derailing, friends. Let's go back to the subject !
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LordBaal

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1146 on: January 19, 2015, 08:18:37 am »

How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??
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King_of_Baboons

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1147 on: January 19, 2015, 09:12:47 am »

How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??

you can't play df without becoming an evil overlord half-way through the game because: realistic and gory health systems + freedom to do everything you want + a bunch of lunatic players = Evil !!SCIENTIFIC!! Experiments.
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Dirst

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1148 on: January 19, 2015, 10:30:41 am »

How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??
Yes, getting hammered at a tavern does sound much more pleasant.
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Zarathustra30

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1149 on: January 19, 2015, 11:34:16 am »

How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??

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What were Toady's views on torture?  I know that he didn't want dwarves doing it, but is he willing to implement it at all, or does he think that torture will also make DF "that game"?
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How did we pass from inns with merry songs and happy music to temples of doom and medieval torture with so much easiness and eagerness??

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1150 on: January 19, 2015, 12:58:40 pm »

you can't play df without becoming an evil overlord half-way through the game because: realistic and gory health systems + freedom to do everything you want + a bunch of lunatic players = Evil !!SCIENTIFIC!! Experiments.

The health system is not realistic. When was the last time you saw a punched hand explode into gore through a gauntlet?

Torture already exists in DF adventure mode, at the hands of the player (I have read stories of players snapping all an enemy's fingers before finally putting them out of their misery days later). Fortress dwarves have also been observed doing it, even on their own kind (dwarven child care and forgotten beast poison experiments). Legal systems where confession and torture play a major part would be a good addition for some civilisations, though Toady may not want dwarves doing it; it is far easier for a lazy lawman to tear out his suspect's teeth until he confesses the crime than to do a proper investigation to be sure of getting the right culprit, and such systems were (and in some places still are) thus very popular.
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

For old times' sake.

thedrelle

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1151 on: January 19, 2015, 01:27:13 pm »

Certainly, the damage physics need a lot of refinement, but this is by far the most elaborate and accurate ( in a damage specific sort of way) damage and health model in a game. bar none.
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Yes?

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1152 on: January 19, 2015, 02:25:19 pm »

There are some threads on the modding sub forum about fixing combat, but a lot of it is sadly out of the reach of modders right now.
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

For old times' sake.

Putnam

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1153 on: January 19, 2015, 04:26:48 pm »

you can't play df without becoming an evil overlord half-way through the game because: realistic and gory health systems + freedom to do everything you want + a bunch of lunatic players = Evil !!SCIENTIFIC!! Experiments.

The health system is not realistic. When was the last time you saw a punched hand explode into gore through a gauntlet?

Torture already exists in DF adventure mode, at the hands of the player (I have read stories of players snapping all an enemy's fingers before finally putting them out of their misery days later). Fortress dwarves have also been observed doing it, even on their own kind (dwarven child care and forgotten beast poison experiments). Legal systems where confession and torture play a major part would be a good addition for some civilisations, though Toady may not want dwarves doing it; it is far easier for a lazy lawman to tear out his suspect's teeth until he confesses the crime than to do a proper investigation to be sure of getting the right culprit, and such systems were (and in some places still are) thus very popular.

Player stuff doesn't count at all.

What were Toady's views on torture?  I know that he didn't want dwarves doing it, but is he willing to implement it at all, or does he think that torture will also make DF "that game"?

Goblins certainly do some awful stuff.

MrLupenTails

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1154 on: January 19, 2015, 04:30:00 pm »

Can we create our own custom deities through a noble or by using the temple? Will dwarves be able to change religion? Can we enforce punishment on heresy or blasphemy? Will some religions be more violent? Will some religions be more peaceful?

Edit: When I asked the last two questions, I was referring to world generation scenarios. It would suck if all religions seemed the same for each race.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 04:32:32 pm by MrLupenTails »
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